Shotguns and Elitists, Part II

What's an LPK?

I think I covered the first part with the discussion about mechanical skill vs. positioning knowledge skill. All weapons require a certain degree of mechanical and positional skill, shotguns have a small emphasis on mechanical skill and a larger emphasis on positional skill than AR's/LMGs, etc.

(In my opinion) the "pride" in not using them is comes from the reason people play competitive FPS games (in this case competitive is not MLG but competitive as in Player vs. Player) : to be better than the other guy. Using a weapon that circumvents the traditional skill checks that determine an outcome is where the negative behavior usually spawns from.

As Mustarde pointed out, if traditional skill checks were used, the "MLG" person would have likely survived the encounter. However, if they were using a shotgun, they likely still would have won but there would be other encounters where due to the RNG nature of pellet spread they could suffer losses that they could normally easily survive through honed mechanical skill.

So it becomes a "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" type situation. If you don't use a shotgun while playing aggressive, there is always that chance that you will round a corner and someone with a shotgun will have a favorable RNG roll while having a wide CoF over your center mass. If you do use a shotgun, there will be encounters where your mechanical skill is higher than the skill ceiling required for a shotgun and are ultimately limited by the weapon itself.

Also, I believe you are a bit off with the way LPK is calculated. It is not shots to kill 1 target, it is shot landed before you get a kill.

A good example of this is I have a few thousand kills with the ghost sniper rifle with ~70% head shot rate. If LPK was a shots required to kill a single target, then mine would be expected to be ~1.3 when in reality my LPK is 1.9. What actually happens is if I body shot someone and they get away, then body shot someone else twice you receive a LPK of 3 for that instance. Despite only requiring 2 hits to kill the target. Along a similar line, if using a full auto weapon and you last hit someone despite someone else putting 6 shots into them, you will receive a LPK of 1 for that encounter and they will have +6 added to their next when they actually get a kill.

With a shotgun, if you have a LPK of 3 it doesn't mean that every player you encounter requires 3 shots to kill them. It means on average you get a kill for every 3 hits you land. Which means, if you fire at someone 20M away and chase them off with 6 hits but not enough damage for a kill because of the dropoff, and then 1HKO the next 3 people you have a LPK of 3 for that weapon.

Well that could be the case, but then at least your KDR or KPH or SPM or anything really would be at least average. But they are below average/poor.

The only reason I use stats so frequently is because I have to fight fire with fire here. If I don't have respectable stats, why should my opinion matter? I'm just a shotgun ****ter who's mad because they got taunted for the sole reason of using a shotgun because I a bad!

Same thing with you, really. If you want your opinion to be respected, you get experienced in what your debating.

But really, I wouldn't discredit your opinion simply on the basis of whether or not I respect you as a player. But I digress.

LPK stands for Landed Per Kill, a stat that measures how many shots a player lands per kill on average.

Meaning that with a shotgun's minimum effective TTK being a 2HK, and only a few players worldwide have an average LPK of less then 3, only a few players world-wide can actually use a shotgun's TTK advantage consistently.

Eh, it's better then trying to measure based on accuracy. I know that specifically on my Chaos araxium, I rarely engaged targets out of range specifically to try and deflate my LPK score(which you can see, with my Nova/Thanatos being at 4.5ish and Chaos/Baron being at 3ish).

I know it's not perfect, but even so, I like to think at the very least I've formed the semblance of a solid argument(If you can see past all the salt and satire). Better then simply going "shotguns are OP so I won't use them because they are OP so I won't use them because they are OP etc. etc. that some people use.

I see.

I think as long as you take away from it that the shown LPK stat is going to be higher than the actual shots required to kill, we are on the same page.

But I don't think the actual argument though is "Shotguns are OP, and I don't use them because they are OP" (It probably is for some people, but everyone and everything gets complained about at some point or another) it is closer to what I described with the "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" explanation.

If your MLG elites who turn their nose at shotgun picks one up, they will consistently beat average players who use a shotgun. BUT they will be then forced into situations where their MLG skills will be limited by the RNG nature of the weapon. So it is sort of a lose / lose situation. Do you operate below your skill ceiling to be sure you have the raw burst damage to outgun a random shotgun user, or do you go for the higher skill ceiling weapon that gives you greater kill potential overall, but every so often you will die to a RNG encounter?

For your average player, if they are using a shotgun they have a chance to beat the MLG player that they couldn't otherwise match. And because they are statistically average, they don't run into the problem hitting a weapons skill ceiling, thus making using a shotgun a win/win for them.

The other side (the side you are representing) has I feel like an equally valid platform in that : Should we actually feel sorry for someone who is in the top 5% of all players and already stomping 95% of the other players out there? The answer is of course no, because in a purely PvP game, players are content and without a way to [occasionally] bridge the gap between the top 5% and the other 95% that average portion of the playerbase tends to thin out over time.****

*** This is an issue for planetside more so than many other FPS games, not because of shotguns vs. carbines/ARs/LMGs but the cheese ladder thing I mentioned before, specifically you can be a good player and start off pulling a bigger gun than most average players (MAX suit, AI Farming Tank, etc) and ultimately accelerate the decay of your content (i.e. other players leave faster) because newer players tend to be accustomed to a certain level of 1 v 1 balance in their shooters from past experiences.

The empirical and physical evidence of in-game performance agree's with me.

People kill shotgun-users all the time because the shotgun user was discovered too soon, only then they don't notice it at all. It's when a shotgun comes up and they fail to react in time that they feel cheated... Even though they will have a Carbine/LMG/AR/SMG that kills them in similar fashion much more often.
Shotguns have a marginally better TTK, marginally, if you manage to get that one or two-shot kill. However you need to be in extreme CQC to pull that off, and as shown by the shots landed per kill (LPK, you didn't seem to understand that one) the average player, even pro players that score very high with shotguns, have LPK's that result in higher TTK's than the average LPK gives of other weapons...

Hey, but the average LPK of other weapons is based on their usage at more effective ranges than CQC, most automatic weapons are used at longer ranges than CQC, and still they have, on average, a better TTK than shotguns? This right there is already a deathblow to shotguns, the fact that a shotgun wielded in it's effective range has only a marginally better TTK than other automatic weapons is another blow since you barely have an advantage when you pull it off.
Don't forget, it takes a lot more positional and situational awareness for a shotgun user to get into CQC with an enemy. Most fights do not take place within the effective range of a shotgun, which is between 5 and 10m, and at 10m and further you already are looking at a 3-shot kill more often than a 2-shot kill assuming your hits are pinpoint perfect, bumping your TTK up above automatics already!
Then there's the fact that automatics are constantly using cover in fights. Doorposts, rocks, crates, debris etc. Most automatics can work simply by acquiring a LOS, while a shotgun user is forced to expose himself, get away from cover and get behind your enemies. They cannot attack full-frontal as most infantry do constantly, except in a few specific situations where enemies are holed up behind doorposts you have to flank them in order to get in close. BTW, in those doorway scenario's the people behind the doorway either can see you coming or they outnumber you, nullifying your advantage.

So what's left? Automatics can be used effectively outside of their effective range. You can use burstfire and trigger discipline to get hits and kills on ranges far outside of their effective range. A shotgun simply becomes useless, in fact, it already becomes useless within it's own effective range. There is no burstfire or triggerdiscipline that can make up for it's spread or it's massive damage falloff at range.
Then there's aim, everyone always claims that you barely need to aim with a shotgun to kill someone. Completely wrong. In the ranges where a shotgun is effective you need pinpoint accuracy or your shots go wide, not hitting all pellets is disastrous and any player with an automatic and average skill will be able to outgun you. Using a shotgun at ranges where you can spray and pray means you hit maybe 1 to 3 pellets and already have the massive damage falloff kick in, meaning again that you cannot win the fight if the opponent has even rudimentary FPS skill.

So, the only advantage shotguns then have is... A huge magazine. It's a pocket LMG that almost anyone can carry, at any time. If you have the pinpoint accuracy to make it work, it's perfect!
It's actually strange that Mustarde said that people would be using shotguns more if it wasn't for MAX's, since shotguns are great for getting a ton of damage done to MAX's if you survive for long enough since you can deal more damage per magazine than other automatic weapons.

That enough empirical and physical evidence for you? BTW, you didn't offer any empirical or physical evidence yourself did you?

I love how you attack me personally, saying I claim I'm the best player in the world and that I think I mastered shotguns. Where did I say that? Can you tell me? Nope you can't.

These "overpowered" buffs could just, you know, have very low damage capacities? It doesn't have to be OP. Of course, you have such a bad idea of how shotguns have to be used and nothing to back it up that you have to attack the players personally rather than the arguments they give.

Good job, good job!

People still use Shotguns in Biolabs?

My weapon of choice is the T5-AMC. Oh.. but its TTK is only .55 versus Orions and SAW's .48...

Yeah until I aim for the head and get consistent headshots due to lower firerate bloom and lower recoil. And I get to do that where it matters.. around the generator and SCU. Screw going for the control points. Let the enemy take them. It allows more friendlies to spawn in to bog them down.

As an attacker I can easily clear the enemy off the important areas. Even if friendlies flip the points, much of the zerg that piles in will be distracted by the flipped points. Allowing me to drop the gen in relative peace. Leaving only limited defense from 'smarter' players.

I say smarter in quotes because likely they'll be using shotguns or LMGs. Which on control points works. But in the large room with the gen.. not so much. Once that goes down, drop the SCU and the base flips instantly if any control point is flipped.

With that said.. anyone who gets uppity about shotguns needs to get over themselves. Its a game with a variety of weapons. Be prepared for it. B-tching about a weapon just expresses inflexibility and is an indication of a scrub player. One that is not only a bad opponent, but bad for their teammates. Nothing more.

I think I covered that with how a shotgun simply does not allow for mechanical skill to make up for it, while all weapons including automatics benefit equally from positional and situational skill. Difference is that the automatics can be used from longer ranges and shotguns have the option, but not the guarantee as shown already, to get the kill faster than other automatics. But for a shotgun the positional and situational awareness skills are required, while for automatics you need only the most rudimentary skills (which most players use) and get a LOS of the enemy, which is why so many automatics are used outside of their effective range.

I see so rarely a good counter argument. This puts the LPK argument on a big seesaw. It's not a definite death blow but we need a lot more insight in the average TTK weapons have, which is what we tried to prove with the LPK.
Still the fact remains that shotguns have only a marginally better TTK if you succeed, and to succeed you need a perfect aim and the right distance.

What you are saying is true, the big HOWEVER though is that another player can do the all the work of setting up that positional advantage simply by playing aggressive and pushing battle lines. (Which is where the MLG crowd get their KPH numbers required to be in the special club)

Again, I'm with you that shotguns are objectively worse weapons in most ways but I thought the overarching issue was "Why do people hate on them" not "Shotguns are OP"

gundem, I suggest you stop trying to bring up your stats, they only hurt your argument by making you look just as bad as you really are. I will agree that shotguns are most definitely not OP, having auraxed 3 myself, and something that someone can play HA with and struggle to pull a 1 KDR with obviously can't be OP, as you can show us with your stats and personal experience as a monarchs scrub.

It's more speculation than anything. Shotguns can be brutal to maxes, but it makes you incredibly vulnerable and still takes a long time to unload all that damage into a max. Right now, like I mentioned, I'm working on the VS directive shotty so when I'm feeling extra ballsy and there's only one max to deal with, I'll try to get a decimator in him and then finish with the shotgun. I say I walk away about 50% of the time.

Thats more of a statement about how strong maxes are vs. infantry than about shotguns. But it comes down to how vulnerable you have to make yourself using a shotgun. The best way to use one is to be indoors, always moving and square off against people within 10m before they can really react. This is a ton of fun when it works, but also makes you super vulnerable to random deaths. Contrast to an LMG/carbine where you are minimizing incoming lanes of fire, cutting corners carefully and being the one in position to flank, not get flanked.

At this point in the discussion, I'm not sure who I am agreeing with or not. It is fun to talk about shotguns though. I still get annoyed when I'm doing my thing and some suicidal LA jumps through a doorway blindly spraying their barrage in my general direction, killing me and then instantly dying a moment later. I suppose I should be glad that they were so reckless and that they weren't carefully picking off my squad one by one. But it sucks that I was the poor sap who got blapped and couldn't do anything about it.

One thing I will say right now - after shotguns were nerfed back in 2013 (and I think again in 2014?), I think SOE/DBG did a good job, and balance wise I wouldn't touch them at all.

Well considering that the people who hate them claim shotguns are OP, I would say that disproving that shotguns are OP would be the death blow to the hate.
I think it's the same as racism: People do not understand something and for no reason at all they lash out at it. Any information they acquire about the subject is first and foremost used in confirmation bias.

Shotgun in Red Orchestra 2 / Rising Storm:

Shotgun in Terraria.

I guess this has as much relevance as your video

... mmmm ok ...

The best way I can think of to get an "average" TTK is to take the weapon's STK and divide it by its average accuracy to get an average STK. Then take that average STK-1 and multiply it by the refire rate. IOW, (1 / (ROF / 60)) * (STK - 1). You use STK-1 because the first shot is always assumed to be at 0 seconds.

But even that has problems because with shotguns, SOE used to count every pellet as a hit, so you'd get many players with Accuracy >100%. Then there's slugs, which behave very differently than pellets, but DBG's data stream doesn't differentiate between pellet and slug accuracy stats and lumps them both together.

This is simply not true. Getting up close is vital, but Shotguns are incredibly forgiving of bad aiming skill once you get within their effective range due to their high damage per second / damage per shell, combined with their large pellet spread.

I did some number crunching, comparing various TTKs of the Thanatos (VS free shotgun) to the Orion. Below are the results:

The ROF of the Thanatos is 225 and the number of pellets needed to kill is 8, which means STK = 2 shells with at least a 66% pellet hit rate. Thus:

1. The TTK with 100% body shots and an STK of 2, is: (1 / (225 / 60))* (2 - 1 ) = .267 secs.
2. TTK with body shots if the entire 1st shell misses (STK = 3): (1 / (225 / 60)) * (3 - 1 ) = .53 secs
3. TTK with all headsthots = 0 secs
4. TTK With an LPK of 3 (Gundem's "elite shotugn user" LPK): (1 / (225 / 60)) * (3 - 1 ) = .53 secs
5. TTK of the “average player” w/ an Accuracy per DA's site of 38.9% (STK = 21 pellets, or 4 shells): (1 / (225 / 60)) * (4 - 1 ) = .80 secs

Compare this to the Orion:

1. TTK with 100% body shots: (1 / (750/ 60)) * (7 - 1) = .48 secs
2. TTK with body shots if the 1st bullet misses: (1 / (750/ 60)) * (8 - 1) = .56 secs
3. TTK with all headshots = (1 / (750/ 60)) * (4 - 1) = .24 secs
4. TTK with the average LPK of the top 10 Orion killers per DA's site (8.76): (1 / (750/ 60)) * (9 - 1) = .64 secs
5. TTK of the “average player” whose accuracy per DA’s site is 18.9%: (STK = 37): (1 / (750/ 60)) * (37 - 1) = 2.96 secs

Looking at the TTK numbers above:

• You once you get close, in every single case the shotgun's TTK is faster.
• The damage per shell is so high, that with body shots you can miss the entire 1st shell and 4 out of 6 pellets from the 2nd shell, and still kill an Orion user before he can kill you if he misses even 1 bullet (assuming no IWINShield, which is a different topic altogether).
• Your average shotgun user can kill in almost 1/4th the time (.8 secs) that your average Orion user can (2.96 secs).

Of course none of this takes range into consideration, which is the shotgun's Achilles' Heel, and it makes such comparisons only limitedly useful when comparing weapons with such radically different mechanics as shotguns and automatics.


However, it does allude to why shotguns can be so frustrating, both to the user and to potential victims.


DISCLAIMER: Please keep in mind, I do not consider shotguns to be OP at all.

As I stated in the previous thread, shotguns require a high level of skill in reading the terrain, concealed movement, positioning, and situational awareness in order to close the gap on your opponent - either by skillful maneuvering or finding a good ambush location. This is where most of the "skill" comes from when using shotguns.

If you get caught before you can close the gap, COF and the pellet spread are so high that even if you're crosshairs are glued to your opponent's forehead, RNG will likely cause you to lose the fight as pellets fly everywhere but your opponents head.

However, once you do close the gap and get into CQC the damage output is so high that when combined with their large COF and pellet spread skill floor of shotguns goes way down compared to other weapons. Once you're in range, you don't have to have good aim like other weapons do in order to come out on top.

1. They do so much overdamage when getting a kill that you can have 2 (33%) of the 6 pellets miss on every single shell and still maintain an identical STK/TTK.
2. Their huge COF and pellet spread means RNG plays a big role in where pellets actually land - so you don't need accurate or precise aiming skill even if you have excellent aiming skill. If you keep your crosshair on your opponent's head the whole time you may still get only body shots, or miss pellets completely. Likewise, if your aim is completely off the mark, RNG can still frequently reward you with body/headshots.

So, you run into situations where player aiming skill is severely downplayed, and range oftentimes becomes the dominating factor during the actual exchange of fire - either by greatly penalizing the shotgun user if their out of range, or stacking things in hugely their favor if they're within range.

tl;dr - Shotguns are aiming skill equalizers. They have such large pellet spread, high damage per shell, and high overdamage per kill, that they are designed to allow someone with mediocre aiming skill to miss up to 1/3 of their pellets and still maintain a competitive TTK, at the expense of terrible range. They are meant to let a user with average aim compete up close against players with much higher aiming skill. In exchange, they rely a lot more on having good positioning skills and situational awareness, and severely punish those who don't possess these skills.

I literally die everyone few seconds to a br 100 with +2000 kills on jackhammer on briggs.