Shotguns and Elitists, Part II

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Gundem, Jan 20, 2016.

  1. Gundem

    This thread again!?



    Now with 200% more satire!


    So, here we are again. Much learned but nothing gained from our previous thread, and the elitists continue to both belittle and berate(An oxymoron, mind you) shotguns in their feeble attempt to justify getting defeated by an inferior weapon.


    In today's discussion, we attempt to delve further into the enigmatic mindset of the elitist scubs in order to shine the light of CQC wisdom upon a class of weapon that is oft the source of much heated discussion, the Shotgun.


    In case you desire a solid dose of enlightenment, here is the previous thread for your viewing pleasure.



    So, in continuation of our previous thread, we begin.


    Previously, having cleanly spanked the mindset of shotgun superiority, we examine the strange and often contradictory mindset of those who are perturbed by them the most. Specifically, we examine the two specific reasons that are used to justify their hatred and dismissal. These two traits are "Extreme Damage" and "Ease of Use".


    As for the first, I'll quote a statement of mine from the previous thread to get us started:



    As a video by Wrel demonstrates, the headshot TTK of most automatic weapons is near instant and beyond human capacity to react in the first place. This alone should completely desolate the entire argument of the elitists. I quote myself again:

    To which I then answer, with yet another quote that well sums up my thoughts:
    Here lies the major turning point of this discussion; why is the usage of SMG's justified according to the elitist?

    Looking at my own account, I see my average LPK for what is my best performance with a shotgun, the Chaos, is at 3.1, a solid number. While I won't say that I am supremely good, I am well above average in most cases and can hold my own fairly well, even winning a good 1/3 1v1's with the very elitists in Recursion/DA.

    But, as we discussed in the last thread, this is where a major problem begins to to rear it's ugly head: 3 shots is not a TTK advantage. In fact, at 3 shots, a shotgun has a TTK of .8 seconds, which is on par with the average TTK of my CARV, for which I have over 31.5% accuracy on.

    Now, another fallacy is that the elitist complains that below-average/average players can use shotguns to easily secure kills. But, if I, a player with accuracy over 99% of the entire playerbase, can only manage an average of 3 LPK, what does that mean for an average/below average player? For them, you'd be looking at closer to a 4-5LPK, which means a TTK of 1.1-1.4 seconds, which is laughably long for a 1v1 firefight. This is in fact the average LPK of shotguns worldwide. In fact, for the stock shotguns, only 25 players worldwide can manage under a 3 LPK.

    This means that an average or below average player will actually have a significantly longer TTK with a shotgun then they would a carbine or AR or LMG. This also means that they sacrifice all the range and suppression benefits of a normal automatic, for no actual TTK advantage. Further nails into the coffin of the shotgun.


    So, the elitist condemns the inferior weapons, and condones the superior weapon that actually falls under the category they put shotguns under. SMG's are easy to use, have actually competitive TTK's, don't require you to be in knifing range, and don't require good situational awareness.

    So, there we have it boys. That burning you feel? It is shame, once it recedes, go take a moment to rethink your life. When you are done getting down from your high-horse, go arax a shotgun or two and then come back. If your KD matters so much, go make a different character, use the certs you get from BR 2-15 and the certs from araxiuming your stock shotty to get the other shotty's.

    At least then, if you complain, your complaint will have some substance.
    • Up x 3
  2. Azawarau

    I just went heavy VS heavy with a shotgun VS LMG

    The guy backed out of the doorway and got distance

    Guess who couldnt do anything?
  3. Gundem



    I tried to make a joke about being a good dog but I just can't. Some puns just aren't meant to be.

    But those puns, when they are made, people get killed over. Pun making, it's a dangerous business.
  4. Gustavo M

    Shotguns are great when you are dealing with zerglings. And also terrible when dealing with a organized squad. I mean, sure... the latter may be change. But it's very unlikely.
    • Up x 1
  5. Gundem


    I would love for shotguns to get a revamp, make them more effective/reliable at longer range for a slighly longer TTK and greater need to ADS... Leave SMG's as the hipfire class CQC weapons. That way, SMG's don't tread on shotgun's toes(They were there first, SMG's should have to conform, not vise versa), and shotguns become dangerous CQC weapons for those who can aim well.
    • Up x 2
  6. The Shermanator

    "Inferior weapon?"

    Much of the game mandates shorter range confrontation, and shotguns create an envelope of assurance wherein they so far overmatch all other weapons, that they become unopposed.

    If you like using them, fine. But trying to justify the use of them by calling them 'inferior weapons,' like you're seriously using them to test your skill, is silly.
  7. Gustavo M

    Slug shottie says hello.
  8. Gustavo M

    I sorta agree/disagree with you on that one. But then again, Miller playerbase is half composed of tanks and the another one of snipers. So, heh.
  9. Demigan

    The true mark of someone without any knowledge of shotguns.
    Shotguns are not unopposed, the only way you can make a shotgun unopposed is to get that juicy OHK, which requires buttloads of skill and RNG to pull off. However, any Carbine or LMG can kill someone before the first hitmarker arrives on their screen, giving them no chance to retaliate as well, but from farther ranges.

    As explained by Gundem, that 'unopposed' part rarely happens to anyone. This means that with the LPK on average a shotgun is worse off than the other weapons. This means that the shotgun has only one real advantage: A large amount of damage per magazine.
    • Up x 2
  10. Unclematos7

    My only araxium weapon is the NC xzibbit shotgun, and I'm proud of it.
  11. Pelojian

    the only times i get unopposed shotgun kills is when the enemy is question is so unskilled that i can walk right up the them standing firing at some distant enemy and headshot them at knife range.

    I don't get why elitists hate shotguns so much. being able to use them effectively relies on getting into range and trying to be as accurate as possible if they are moving around when not aware of you.
    • Up x 2
  12. Gundem


    During my first thread, an interesting video showed up that did a really good job showcasing that reason.

    Basically, he explained that elitists hate shotguns because it allows them to discredit the user of the weapon rather then their own shortcomings. Rather then looking inward, recognizing their mistakes and taking corrective action, they can simply dismiss their failure as "******* shotgun ****ters".

    Even though, in these two threads alone I have comprehensively proven(With much help from Iridar51 and Demigan, much luv) that shotguns range from either mediocre to flat-out awful depending on skill levels and RNG. So basically it's an issue of, unsurprisingly, elitism.


    Eh, the problem is that slugs are still bad, and their TTK is actually awful. 3-4 shots and you'd be better off using a battle rifle.

    With an emphasis on ADS, having tighter pellet spreads and larger hip CoF, you'd make them require more ADS for anything but luck-shots equal to getting a hipfire BASR headshot.

    Then, change the damage model to 450 and you have a weapon that can reliably kill in 3 hits, but would require good aim for a NW target.

    Improve the RoF to keep it's TTK in line with current TTK(With a slight increase to somewhat compensate for the improved range), and finally, improve it's max damage range to 10 meters.


    Then, each shotgun type would have specific nuances that would give it emphasis on a specific demographic(Autoshotty for DPS, high-cap for sustained engagement, fast reload for ranged combat), and you're golden.

    All you'd need then is a small buff for Araxium shotty's(I like the idea of keeping them as 2HK types, idealistically rewarding accuracy for damage, but they need better damage fall-off to compliment that smart-choke).


    Of course, then there's the PA shotty's, which are in a bit more difficult position. Really, all I can think of is to make them have a more reliable OHK when you have your sight on center mass and are within range, but give them an even lower RoF to pretty much ensure death to all those who miss. Still requiring ADS might help as well.



    Another interesting factor that undermines the elitist's anti-shotgun mantra is constant radar spam. Considering that shotguns have a max effective range of 10 meters, and most of the elitists have constant radar support from a pocket ***** infil, any death to a shotgun user means that they seriously failed basic map comprehension.
    • Up x 1
  13. Pelojian

    I've never tried the PA shotties, but i recall that lightnings have this weird projectile behavour where the shell bends to the left in flight in third person then bends to the right to correct. why not tighten the pellet spread to make 1HK at close range better and have it behave like dropping water in a funnel with the funnel upside down meaning at range it's less effective then now to balance it out.

    hmm elitists transferring blame from themselves to others using shotties? makes sense.

    I've been running around with the baron AE, haven't really tried other shotguns but it seems like a good shotgun for beginners with laser sight(Iridar thx for pointing out how great that is) shotguns can be high risk if you aren't very good at judging the best distances to start shooting. i do have fun ambushing people with LA and putting people down quickly.

    Baron AE Auraxium here i come only 32 kills or so left.
  14. Gundem


    Baron, while not perhaps my favorite shotgun, has been so far the most effective. Since 7 meters max engagement range simply isn't feasible 90% of the time, the Baron's 15ish max range if you really go ham on the trigger can help you secure a lot of kills just barely out of reach for any other shotgun.

    When you do try PA's, don't shoot yourself in the foot and go for the 1st gen. While neither PA shotguns are "competitive"(Implying shotguns are competitive in the first place), the 2nd gen PA shotgun has better reliability when it comes to getting OHK's inside it's effective range.

    Basically, TFL;DFR, The 1st gen PA has 0 margin for error on it's OHK. With NW being highly abundant, 20% of your damage potential is instantly removed, meaning you can't miss a single pellet on a target. But getting every single pellet on target is nearly impossible in the first place. Then factor in shotguns' extreme damage fall-off, and you can see how it's a recipe for disaster. I can't tell you how many times I've died with a PA in hand, my target having a sliver of HP left. The 2nd gen PA, with it's extra pellet, gives you a little more breathing room for an OHK. Even though I arax'd the Demios first(Meaning I was less experienced with PA's), my LPK is lower on it then my 1st gen PA.
    • Up x 1
  15. Pelojian

    Yeah i'm thinking with other shotguns i will go with the x1 reflex sight or the HS/NV scope w/ laser sight. do you have any tips for better positioning for shotguns? i tend to sneak around blast someone, leg it, jump jet to a high position then try to drop behind someone and pump them full of lead and then jumpjet down if i'm not on the ground or leg it then jump jet up somewhere.

    if i'm am attacking a small room with a cap point i'll throw a flash grenade through one door by bouncing off the door frame then enter another door and blast them.
  16. Gundem


    NV scopes are okay, but with so many ****ters disabling smoke I haven't found myself using it all that much. I usually prefer the x1 reflex sight.

    As for positioning, some of it comes down to instinct. Observe an area. Look for doorways, small rooms or large pieces of cover you can duck behind. Learn the effective range of your gun and start taking mental measurements to every room or base you go to. If it's any more then a few meters larger then that range, it's no good and will get you killed.

    Going "Crouching LA, hidden shotgun" is an okay strategy, but in larger battles it's gonna get you rekt. Though I suppose if you play Biggs that isn't an issue. The main issue is that if you drop on someone and there's anyone else around that someone, you will get filled with bullets. This will end you quite often on more populated servers, but as I said I suppose Briggs suffering from such low pop might not have the same issues.

    Heavy is a good class to hold doorways in. Take for example, the B point on Howling pass. Just sprint from doorway to doorway, and blast whoever gets near enough as they try and retake the point.


    A good thing to consider actually, shotguns work best when defending. And when you are attacking, once you own the CP, you are technically defending again. This is because when you are defending, you force your opponent to come to you, and as such they suffer from the moving penalties as well as covering the needed distance for you. But you can defend more places then CP's. Find a small nook or cranny to make a "nest" in, and blow the brains out of anyone who dares disturb you. A decent place to find examples of small, defensible nooks is at NS Material Storage(Or whatever it's called, the base up the hill south from Howling Pass). First is that tiny room near that you encounter first on the right when walking out the spawn towards the CP, second is that small building with the staircase that most sunderers park behind. These are okay, but they tend to get swarmed by a lot of players and can get you swamped pretty fast.
    • Up x 1
  17. Pelojian

    thx for the tips, briggs isn't bad really if you like the smaller battles better then the huge ones, i like 24vs24s more chance to get kills, less chance of everyone and their dog spotting and killing you at range.

    briggs gets fights upto 48vs48 and 96vs48 it's jsut that people complain because they aren't up fairly often like high pop servers.(IMHO they should do a winback promo for PS2)

    i try to defend cap points with shotgun but it's a PITA because most of the time allies are dummies that leave the point undefended as soon as no enemies are near it. then a minute later it's being capped.

    what's your opinion of turning smoke off? ether they should remove smoke completely or make removing it with config edit impossible IMHO. it's not like an information overlay it's a straight advantage over people that are too honest to do it or ignorant that they can do it.
  18. Gundem


    Personally, I think if you disable smoke you should get some solid dick(Not the 1930's definition of it). Same with Flora, and with optimizing your settings to see cloaked stuff.

    It's just ruining the experience for everyone else. I understand having lower particle quality for framerate reasons, but turning it off completely simply should not be allowed. The only reason it's turned off completely is to gain an undeserved advantage, and if you seriously have such low fps that you need to disable those options, you are running on a potato and those specific settings won't net you any frames.

    If I see a bush, I should be able to crouch in that bush to help prevent myself from being seen, not be sticking a huge "here I am, easy kill!" sign above my head for all the elitists to come ********** around. If I throw a smoke grenade, my nanites better damn well be spent preventing those without inferior NV scopes from seeing me and my teammates, not a waste of my resources and a kick to the balls of my teammates.

    As you said, it's either turned off by those who tryhard, or left on by those too honest or too ignorant to turn it off. There should be a checksum for particles being set to "0" that forces it up to 2.

    As for specific choke-holding strategy, getting with a team is the best way to go(For everything, really). With a 4-man team of a medic for revives and support fire, an engi for ammo and cover, an infil for radar and logistics and yourself as the HA at the doorway, you can hold quite a few people off.
  19. Demigan

    [quote="Gundem, post: 3346851, member: 143066"Then, each shotgun type would have specific nuances that would give it emphasis on a specific demographic(Autoshotty for DPS, high-cap for sustained engagement, fast reload for ranged combat), and you're golden.[/quote]

    I think that shotguns need more versatility. Right now it's extremely niche, but requires a ton of skill to make use of that niche and come out victorious against similar weapons that are much more lenient when you fight outside the weapon's effective range or in CQC, where almost every weapon with the exception of sniper rifles is effective anyway.

    These versatility upgrades can either be to extend the effective range of a shotgun, without necessarily making it as powerful at range. Or to increase the effectiveness and/or quirkiness in CQC.
    Just spitballing off the top of my head without regard for balance: PA shotguns that can fire a light concussion wave (say 20 to 50% of a full concussion grenade) to slow down people's chances to react and increase the chances of a successful kill.
    The ability to swap between buckshot and slug shots on the fly for better long-range versatility at the obvious disadvantages that slugs give.
    My old idea for allowing people to detonate slug shots and causing a buckshot pattern at the point you detonate it, so with skill and timing you can get a buckshot on someone at range.
    Give them the flak-cannon treatment, allowing them to bounce buckshot/slugs around corners, reducing the damage after the bounce.
  20. Mustarde

    Shotguns are frustrating to die to. That doesn't make them wrong, cheesy or OP - it's just a frustrating way to die. A lot of bases force players into CQC situations, and that means - at some point, someone will round the corner and blap you before you can really react. And if you are someone who cares about your KDR, or just doesn't like dying, it can be annoying. I think the "streamers" or "elitists" who get really frustrated about shotguns draw a lot of ire because they know that if the player who killed them had an LMG/carbine/AR instead of shotgun, they would've had a better chance of out-shooting and killing that person. Instead, a dude with a nighthawk just held the trigger down and tore through their NW/shield before they could react.

    On the flip side, using a shotgun can be frustrating. It's a great weapon for guaranteeing ONE kill. You could YOLO into a full room and still probably walk away with at least one kill, sometimes two. But, as discussed by you all here, and in the last thread, it is severely range limited, and is not good for prolonged engagements. You have to turn each encounter into a binary win or lose situation. And once again, if you care about your KDR, it can be frustrating to use a weapon that forces you to be exposed and up close with the enemy to do well with.

    That is a big reason why the Baron shines - that extra range overcomes a lot of limitations that exist for other shotguns. It lets you stay safe-ish and still 2-3 shot nerds.

    The pump actions are by far the most fun, most effective but also the most frustrating to die to. If you are a sneaky LA or a wild crazy HA with a PA, you can do some insane things. I've managed to get behind entire squads of players and just blap them one at a time while they chase me around the stairs, until they are all dead. It's hilarious, but I can understand how much it sucks to be on the receiving end.

    I think I've purpled 4 shotguns to date. I'm working on the VS directive shotgun right now, having done the Thanatos and Baron, almost done with the phobos, half way through the nova (using slugs) and then finishing with the Deimos. It's been an up and down journey. I can surprise some really good players with them, but at the same time die to really bad ones in embarrassing ways. Ultimately, the range limitations and RNG nature of shotguns would deter me from using them regularly. You are simply more versatile with a carbine, LMG or AR. That being said, as someone who has played this game for 3 years and countless hours, I know the right fights and right situations to make a shotgun shine, and in the hands of someone with good aim and game sense, they are stupidly powerful to use.

    If it weren't for maxes, you'd probably see more shotgun users. Because one that that really ruins a shotgunners day is when they are being aggressive and hit that brick wall of a MAX and can't get out of it quickly enough.
    • Up x 5