NC isn't underpowered!

Someone firing 6 shots has 6 lots of recoil and bloom.

But of course, people who argue that NC is UP ignore all stats that don;t support their arguement and just repeat "RoF" and "TTK" until they are blue in the face, because their own cherry picked stats seem to back their arguments up.

:edit:

Not to mention one faction being half the speed for just 20 extra damage is utter BS.

You have the fastest carbine, the second fastest assault rifle and are 100 RPM behind at 650 to 750 in LMGs.

I assume you are also cherry picking weapons to suit your arguments, possibly even making them up?

Oh, all You saying "NC weapons have great damage"... Again, You doesn't seem to understant some basic thing. Most of NC weapons have biggest DMG for sure - for one bullet. But their ROF is lower than ROF of the VS and TR weapons resulting in LOWER DPS. To balance them with VS and TR weapons they are supposed to have LOWER recoil, but according to many people here, besides having lower DPS they also are harder to aim.
Personally, playing NC, first thing I did was throwing off stock weapon and buying one, that doesn't fall into standard NC weapon scheme (unlike other NC weapons, this has high ROF).

As for myself, some day I will have to try and make comparisons, if NC weapons really have higher recoil than VS and TR counterparts - if so, that would be strange (considering they doesn't have highest DPS to compensate that).

Vanu version is more accurate, BTW.

Funny, I think I've mentioned the cone of fire issues, the fact that our guns aren't really that much more powerful, requiring on average one less bullet to kill and the fact that our default weapons aren't necessarily ideal and in many cases aren't as competitive as their counterparts. I like my Gauss SAW, it sounds nice and it feels like it has power. I use the Anchor because it's more viable in more situations and I use the EM6 when I'm not screwing around with something different. I like the Mercenary, but I use the GD7 or the Razor, usually the GD7 because it puts me on equal footing with the other guns. I like the Scatter Cannons, right up until I run into people smart enough to use cover and you know, walk away from me at a brisk pace. At least there, our weapon strengths actually fit though. Oh yeah, and those guns you mention are ones we have to buy. Both VS and TR feature stock guns that are competitive at multiple levels. There's a reason I see rank 40s still rocking the Trac-5, but most high rank NC have swapped over to the GD7.

So, I'll reiterate it for you. I can fire the Trac-5 for a few seconds straight and keep it under control for a kill up to about 30 meters without issue. Past that I burst fire. Using the Mercenary, I have to tap off 2-3 shots depending on if I'm stationary, moving or being shot. If I'm being shot, I usually find it better to fall back and hope they follow me so I can get the first shots the second time around. You combine how fast our guns lose accuracy, the low base accuracy, the recoil, the bullet knock up from bullet hoses and the lower rate of fire and you end up with weapons that while I like the mechanics of, aren't really as good as the other factions. This isn't like playing RTCW:ET and using the Sten knowing that I could easily screw myself in extended firefights. This is closer to QW:ET and the difference between the Hyper Blaster that was useful at all ranges and times and the GPMG that was useful in a handful of areas and only if the enemy team didn't have competent Infiltrators.

The thing is, people who suggest comparing don't really want to.

Because we know the exact bloom and recoil amount per shot, and we know exactly how many ms there are between shots from the weapon data (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...ZOSWNaanFqSUVxLWc&f=true&noheader=true&gid=12).

But when the data is used to show this, NC revert back to "the data is wrong, it feels worse as NC, everyone knows NC is worse, if you disagree you are a troll".

Ok, let's take a look at raw data. My own quote from other topic.
"So, comparing only Trac and Merc - Merc has lower DPS (by 6,6%), higher recoil (6,67%) and CoF bloom lower by 4%." (Don't remember if this was ADS or hipfiring, but I guess I choose some fire mode I use most often)

So, only area that Merc is better in is CoF (and that's very good). Merc has lower ROF and then DPS (bad) and lower recoil. As for recoil - vertical recoil is quite controllable, but horizontal is much more random and uncontrollable. I am not sure if combination of lower CoF and higher recoil both can make Merc more accurate than trac and balance its lower DPS (after You will learn how to control their higher recoil of course). Maybe I should take another look at Merc, but after playing FPS for more than 15 years I still have problems using this weapon. Anyway - I'd be very glad if I can control it's recoil some day to the degree it really be more accurate than TR weapons, that have higher DPS.

Merc:
DPS - 1,670 (167 max damage * 600 RPM / 60 seconds)
Recoil per second - 4 (0.4 recoil * 600 RPM / 60 seconds)
Bloom per second (hipfire) - 1.2 (0.12 bloom * 600 RPM / 60 seconds)
Bloom per second (ADS) - 0.6 (0.06 bloom * 600 RPM / 60 seconds)

Trac-5:
DPS - 1787.5 (143 damage * 750 RPM / 60 seconds)
Recoil per second - 3.75 (0.3 recoil * 750 RPM / 60 seconds)
Bloom per second (hipfire) - 1.25 (0.1 recoil * 750 RPM / 60 seconds)
Bloom per second (ADS) - 0.625 (0.05 recoil * 750 RPM / 60 seconds)

So yes, the difference in DPS is 117.5, the equivilent of one very weak bullet per second (assuming a 100% hit rate).

And that's assuming sustained fire, which neither can afford to do considering how similar their stats are.


Of course, this is only looking at a tiny minority of stats.

Other stats, which favour NC over TR on the weapons which you selected (and looking at 2 weapons does not decide balance FYI)

Reload time (the weapon data has 2 times for each weapon, I'll post them both):
NC - 1.76s/2.8s
TR - 2.6s/3.7s

First Shot Recoil Mult (which I didn't include in my calculation as it requires working out the amount of shots and makes the formula more complex):
NC - 1.75x
TR - 2.35x

CoF Stand ADS Still (starting CoF when in ADS mode, again my calculation only does increase, not the staring point):
NC - 0.03
TR - 0.1

CoF Stand Hipfire Still:
NC - 0.03
TR - 0.1

Not only does the NC weapon have the lowest CoF bloom but it has the lowest base CoF too. It's an accurate gun, and with the first shot recoil modifier I wonder if the TR gun would end up with higher recoil when burst firing (1 sec of sustained fire is one hell of a mag dump, hard to think of it as a burst).

And what this comparison brings to the discussion ? Is it important, if it is less than a bullet, or more than 5 bullets ? No, if You don't consider HP or at least relation between so called "weak bullet" and HP. 117,5 DPS difference is still 6,6 percent more, and if You prefer, it is also 11,75 percent of the players (health+shield) more. For me it is significant difference.

I know that looking at 2 weapons does not decide balance. I am just playing engineer therefore I do the comparison in area that is most important for me. As You look down, not every stats You bring favour NC over TR weapons:

Ok, Merc has beter reload time. For me it is less important how long it takes to reload, I prefer higher DPS because If I am dead I can't reload anyway. What You like more - DPS or reload time question of personal preferences and playing style.

Here I am wondering if You know how to interpret data You linked ? Those values alone, without recoil value, cannot be interpreted or compared. Recoil multiplier is value, that You multiply by recoil value and apply to 1st shot, then every next shot is increased by recoil value. Since Merc recoil is 0,4 and Trac is 0,3, then First Shot recoil for Merc is 0,700 and for Trac is 0,705. If You want difference that is really not important, You have it here.

You don't have to wonder now. They have almost the same recoil at 1st shoot (with 0,005 difference in favor of Merc) and beginning with 2nd shot Merc has bigger recoil.

According to the data You provided, CoF Stand Hipfire Still is the same for both weapons (1,5). You made mistake here and copied CoF Stand ADS Still values twice, I guess. There is no place when hipfiring, where Merc has lower CoF base value than Trac.
The area in which Merc seems to gain most is ADS view when crouching and sometimes still, other Values are the same.
Amongst 9 CoF Values 3 are better for Merc, 6 are the same for both weapons. CoF Bloom is bit better for Merc, as I admitted before.

You don't think how much of a difference there is between two things has a place in a balance discussion? Then what exactly is the purpose of this thread?

Balance isn't looking at one stat in isolation. What percentage damage increase doesn't tell you what difference it makes. Nanoweave armour is a perfect example of that. Nanoweave 1 lets you survive 1 more bullet. Then getting 2, 3, 4 and 5 will increase the percentage of health which you get as a bonus by a lot but in the real world all those extra levels only let you take 1 more bullet, but omly if said bullet deals just 100 - 112 damage.

In fact given that the difference is just over 112, that's exactly what it's like. Exactly the same situation. It's the same advantage as someone with NW5 has over someone with NW1.

Engineers have more than 1 weapon each. If you want to look at engineer weapons then look at the carbines in general. All of the ones available to each faction, not just specific ones.

If you get jumped while reloading you can't shoot back. It obviously is an advantage to reload quicker. Whether it's more important than DPS isn't so much preference as it is situational.

I provided the recoil per second, and I specifically pointed out why I didn't include it in the calculation.

If I had I couldn't have used RPM. I would have had to calculate the number of shots fired in 1 second so I could apply the multiplier to one and have the rest go through at normal value.

This obviously has more effect on players (of both factions) who burst fire instead of spraying.

And I checked this after posting too. It decreases the difference when looking at burst fire instead of a second of sustained fire (and since the percentage differences seem to be all that you care about, you should not be ignoring this unless you want to show your bias), but TR still has the edge in this stat on the weapons that you chose.

Yeah, my bad. When copying & pasting I grabbed ADS crouched instead of hipfire standing.


:edit:

Truth be told, I believe that bullet bloom should be removed from the game. I'm not particularly keen on the randomization factor and see no true reasoning behind it. I understand that they might want to restrict hosing your targets...but still.

Yes, differences are important, some more some less. Measuring them in bullets brings nothing without relations to player HP. For example, if, let's say, it is one bullet difference, then it is important to know how many bullets do You need to kill. 5 ? 10 ? 100 ? Knowing that You really can say "one bullet more is no difference" Because of that I think, that talking about percentage in relationship to HP or second compared weapon was more meaningful.

Agree, but this is true only If You are getting hit by bullets, from full HP. If You suffered some other damage before, then additional HP could make a difference

Ok, thought we were talkong about default weapons. I am fully happy with my 1000 cert GD-7F.

hrmm thats odd... i never burst fire or even bother aiming down the sights with my TR and i've gotten tons of kills... on my NC if i try that with any gun other than guns designed for hip fire i will miss not might but will 100% of the time. NC have to burst fire and 90% of the guns have to be aimed. with a ttk of half a second means the NC are drasticly under powered and will be untill either the recoil is reduced so someone jumping around a corner doesn't have such a massive advantage over them. any TR or VS weapon will out perfeorm any NC weapon unless the NC is ready for them. if your allready in a defensive position, the NC weapons are adequate, but the devs have always claimed NC weapons do more damage which is total BS. 1 or 2 bullets more damage is not more damage when the other factions guns can shoot 5 bullets in the time it takes the nc to shoot 1-2 simple fact is put NC and a TR HA face to face 20m have them start shooting at the same time and the TR will win most of the time

It's actually pretty easy to understand, more recoil, less rate of fire, the more skilled the player must be to get those high damage rounds to hit.

Low recoil high rate of fire with slightly less damage, spraying and praying / hip firing counter strike style less thinking involved just more bullets exiting the barrel of your gun. Ask any 30+ BR NC player the giggles he gets when he uses his VS / TR alts.

Wow, I commend you for giving your opinion and being fair about your thoughts.

-Grave

We all know how much of a difference a bullet makes. We all play this game, correct? Have any of us here not been in many infantry battles?

By this logic, do you think NW5 is a great bonus? A whole 25% extra health, how can that not be OP?

The amount of additional HP hasn't increased, the difference it makes is still the same amount of extra health which is less than most bullets deal.

Then it's not really a balance discussion.

Anyone can pick out 2 weapons that show their own faction as being UP, that means nothing.

This game is not balanced so that every single weapon be exactly equal to every other weapon. Faction balance is a big picture thing, it's not done on individual guns.

NC have the short straw when it comes to LMGs. Your lack of RoF is a disadvantage in CQB.

However in the other weapon types you have some great weapons, if you don't exclude them simply because you personally don't use them.

Reference: http://www.planetside-universe.com/character.php?stats=stormhawk

It's only been stated about a dozen times that that's not his character...

I never said it was good at all.

FYI it's been linked plenty of times in the thread: http://www.planetside-universe.com/character.php?stats=MarcelCarter

His char is this one :
http://www.planetside-universe.com/character.php?stats=MarcelCarter
Obviously demonstrate nothing at all without comparison with his chars on other empires

I'm having no troubles at all, dont worry