Let me start by saying first and foremost... This is NOT, in any way, a "Buff" thread. There's been a lot of talk recently surrounding the NC AI MAX and a lot of meaningful discussion has taken place, but I feel most people are assuming the creators of these threads are asking for a Buff when, in fact, they're not. Let's start by going over some of the most popular complaints and frustrations. 1. They kill too fast 2. Reloading happens too often and it's too long. 3. TR/VS can kill twice as many people per clip. 4. They stand little to no chance against other MAXs that are also in AI configurations. 5. They lack the range that the other MAXs have so you should use the Falcons instead (dumbfire AV weapons) CHANGES Let me solve issues 1 - 4 with a few simple changes: Reduce the damage per shot by ~40% Up the clip size to 10. Reduce reload times to 2 seconds. How does this fix the issues?It should be pretty straight forward, you're reducing damage so you don't kill as fast. No longer will infantry at full health get instagibbed because it will take 2 shots from both weapons to kill them instead of 1. On the plus side, for those of you have the urge to scream "NO" right now, you will won't be as frustrated with pesky reloads AND your total damage will be spread out more so you won't be wasting extra damage on those with already low health. Numbers for those who like them:For this demonstration I will be using the weapon stats of the Hacksaw, M6 Onslaught, and the Nebula VM20 since they have the fastest TTK/ROF. Damage will be based off the 8-10m range. One thing to note to avoid confusion is that the first shot is free of time. Here's a diagram to explain 1==========2==========3==========4 The numbers represent a shot and the = represent the amount of time between shots. There is only 3 spaces of time for 4 shots. So when you see a -1 in the TTK formula, it is for this reason. NCRounds per second: 60 / 209 = .287Weapon Damage: 125 x 6 = 750 x 2 = 1500Shots needed: 1000 / 1500 = 1TTK: 1 -1 = 0 * .287 = 0 or .287 TRRounds per second: 60 / 492 = .122Weapon Damage: 125 x 2 = 250Shots needed: 1000 / 250 = 4TTK: 4 - 1 = 3 * .122 = .366 VSRounds per second: 60 / 426 = .141Weapon Damage: 143 x 2 = 286Shots needed: 1000 / 286 = 4TTK: 4 - 1 = 3 * .141 = .423 NC after changes Rounds per second: 60 / 209 = .287 Weapon Damage: 76 x 6 = 456 x 2 = 912 Shots needed: 1000 / 912 = 2 TTK: 2 - 1 = 1 * .287 = .287 (This can also be 0 since the first shot takes no time) Issue #3 While this isn't that big of an issue to me personally, it is a valid concern. So let's look at the numbers behind killing 12 people which would be 2 full STOCK clips for the NC. NCTTK 1 Infantry: .287Shots needed for 1: 2Shots needed for 12: 2 x 12 = 24Shots per clip: 6Reloads needed: 1TTK 12 Infantry: 12 -1 = 11 x .287 = 3.157 + 4 = 7.157 TRAmmo pool: 120Shots Needed: 12000 / 125 = 96Reload needed: 96 > 120 = NoTTK: 96 / 2 = 48 - 1 = 47 * .122 = 5.734 VSAmmo Pool: 100Shots Needed: 12000 / 143 = 84Reload Needed: 84 > 100 = NoTTK: 84 / 2 = 42 - 1 = 41 * .141 = 5.781 NC after changes TTK 1 Infantry: .287 Shots needed for 1: 2 Shots needed for 12: 2 x 12 = 24 Total shots per clip: 20 Reloads needed: 1 TTK 12 Infantry: 12 -1 = 11 x .287 = 3.157 + 2 = 5.157 .So as you can see the NC MAX, while it does have to reload, is very close to the TR/VS and much better than it is now on live. Issue #5 This is a valid concern because when you look at the numbers, it's pretty apparent that there's an issue. MAXs have 2000 HP with an innate damage resistance to bullets of 80% which is the same as having an effective health of 10000. With this in mind we can figure out how \fast AI MAXs can kill each other. NCAmmo Pool: 12Shots Needed: 10000 / 750 = 14Reload Needed: 14 > 12 = Yes, 4 secondsTTK: 14 / 2 = 7 - 1 = 6 * .287 = 1.722 + 4 = 5.722 TRAmmo pool: 120Shots Needed: 10000 / 125 = 80Reload needed: 80 > 120 = NoTTK: 80 / 2 = 40 -1 = 39 * .122 = 4.758 VSAmmo Pool: 100Shots Needed: 10000 / 143 = 70Reload Needed: 70 > 100 = NoTTK: 70 / 2 = 35 - 1 = 34 * .141 = 4.794 NC after changes Ammo Pool: 20 Shots Needed: 10000 / 456 = 22 Reload Needed: 22 > 20 = Yes, 2 seconds TTK: 22 / 2 = 11 - 1 = 10 * .287 = 2.87 + 2 = 4.87 See the issue? The NC MAX take almost a whole second longer to kill a MAX than it's counterparts. Also, I'm sure you noticed the effects of my changes. The numbers are much more balanced. Initially I had wanted to double the clip sizes to 12 (I still would love to), but it created an issue here where it would give us a huge advantage... 2.87 TTK on a MAX anyone? lol Also, don't forget that these numbers are before any added dmg reduction from the Kinetic Armor Certification. Issue #6 I believe the weapons that we have already are pretty well built for their respective niches so I propose that we don't change too much that it effect it. These changes shall be made on top of the changes I suggested above. The nature of our weapons being a shotgun type really makes this a strange task cause shotguns aren't designed to be effective at range. In spite of this, I think we can still make it happen without ruining the game and making a lot of people angry. To do this we can tweak the bullet spread enough to give us a little more accuracy at range. Another change that I would make is to remove the slug ammunition certification and just make it passive on the Mattocks. There's no reason we should be forced to buy something to be effective at range when NEITHER the TR nor the VS have to. The reduction of bullet spread on our weapons can vary and don't have to be the same, although it would solve some concerns that I personally have specifically with some of the pellets from each one of our shots missing. A missed pellet or two effects our effectiveness much more so than other MAXs.Other Data Damage/TTK at 30m range. NC Rounds per second: 60 / 180 = .333 Weapon Damage: 70 x 6 = 420 x 2 = 840 Shots needed: 1000 / 840 = 2 TTK: 2 -1 = 1 * .333 = .333 or 0 TR Rounds per second: 60 / 426 = .141 Weapon Damage: 125 = 125 x 2 = 250 Shots needed: 1000 / 250 = 4 TTK: 4 -1 = 3 * .141 = .423 VS Rounds per second: 60 / 366 = .164 Weapon Damage: 143 x 2 = 286 Shots needed: 1000 / 286 = 4 TTK: 4 -1 = 3 * .164 = .492 Keep in mind that these numbers using Mattocks, Mercy, and Blueshift. As you can see, the problem obviously isn't damage... It's our spread which in turn effects our damage. Tighten the spread and you'll be more effective at range.
Sensible suggestions explained with solid reasoning, presented in such a way that I think most people will agree with.
I found some errors in my math for the first section. The NC's changed TTK is actually slower than the TR/VS, but there's not a whole lot I can do with a rounds per second of .287... You either 1 shot or 2 shot with a TTK of .574 Because of this it looks like the instagib is unavoidable unless we change the RPM of the weapons to be faster which isn't very shotgun or NC-like. I can't edit my post anymore so here's some updated changes I upped the damage per pellet to 84 resulting in 504 damage per shot. Reduced the shots per clip to 9 because I hit an issue with the MAX TTK being insanely fast again. I really don't think people would like to see NC MAXs take out other MAXs in less than 3 seconds.... Although, it would encourage them to stay back. NC TTK for Infantry = 0 or .287 NC TTK for 12 Infantry = 5.157 down from 5.731 NC TTK for MAX = 4.583 down from 4.87 We're left with 2 options. Accept these updated changes ^^^^^ and still be able to instagib infantry OR go with the changes in the OP and give up the crown for the fastest TTK per clip.
So 12 people is a blob of 12000 HP point ? it's too much simple... Especially with low rate of fire weapons. It's like sampling principle, the faster you sample, the closer you are to the original signal. So killing 12 people is very different to dealing 12000 damage, and this is even more true with low rate of fire weapons like NC ones. Personnally, I would prefer 250=>300 RoF weapons with less alpha damage, bigger mag and smaller spread. Like 1 for Mattock and 2.5 for Grinder, so they can have range. They will be closer to TR and VS weapons but still be slower firing shotgun. We do agree on having less alpha damage, because that's what makes very hard to balance and very frustrating for people facing NC MAX.
You believe the weapons are already pretty well build for their niches so you want to nerf shotguns to be as powerful as an LMG at CQC while only affecting the pellet spread not the dmg decrease at range or the pellet speed which will still make the shotguns vastly inferior at any range except point blank. You see the problem in that logic? You take out the only advantage the shotguns have(alpha damage at close range) and keep all the advantages the lmgs have against it, better damage projection, higher dpm, higher critical damage, higher bullet damage.
12000 Damage is 12000 Damage.Whether or not all that damage actually hits is a completely different issue that ISN'T exclusive to NC... VS/TR have misses too. The only difference is that with our slower ROF and higher damage per shot it hurts us more than the TR/VS if we miss. This is what I hope to fix with what I discussed in the last section of the OP. A tighter spread will give us less room for error, but keep in mind it can go both ways in the same way that a Tank's HEAT round has a smaller splash radius than a HE round... if you miss and the target is outside the splash radius you will do no damage whereas you can hit in the same spot with the HE round and still do some damage. As far as alpha damage at range goes, let's look at AI MAX TTK at ~30m. NC Rounds per second: 60 / 209 = .287 Weapon Damage: 45 x 6 = 270 x 2 = 540 Shots needed: 1000 / 540 = 2 TTK: 2 -1 = 1 * .287 = .287 TR - Weapon damage levels out at 50m so some more calculations need to be made Rounds per second: 60 / 492 = .122 Damage Alpha: 25 damage over 40 meters Damage change @ 30m: 25 / 40 = .625 * 20 = 12.5 Damage @ 30m: 125 - 12 = 113 x 2 = 226 Shots needed: 1000 / 226 = 5 TTK: 5 - 1 = 4 * .122 = .488 VS - Weapon damage levels out at 50m so some more calculations need to be made Rounds per second: 60 / 426 = .141 Damage Alpha: 31 damage over 40 meters Damage change @ 30m: 31 / 40 = .775 * 20 = 15.5 Damage @ 30m: 143 - 15 = 128 x 2 = 256 Shots needed: 1000 / 256 = 4 TTK: 4 - 1 = 3 * .141 = .423 As you can see, the problem obviously isn't damage... It's our spread which in turn effects our damage. Tighten the spread and you'll be more effective at range. I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say. I realize that with the changes I have in the OP, our CQB TTK goes above the other 2 MAXs, but I already mentioned this.The formulas were giving the wrong data and I could not edit my OP because I ran out of time. Here's the updated Numbers: Single InfantryNC Rounds per second: 60 / 209 = .287 Weapon Damage: 125 x 6 = 750 x 2 = 1500 Shots needed: 1000 / 1500 = 1 TTK: 1 -1 = 0 * .287 = 0 or .287 TR Rounds per second: 60 / 492 = .122 Weapon Damage: 125 x 2 = 250 Shots needed: 1000 / 250 = 4 TTK: 4 - 1 = 3 * .122 = .366 VS Rounds per second: 60 / 426 = .141 Weapon Damage: 143 x 2 = 286 Shots needed: 1000 / 286 = 4 TTK: 4 - 1 = 3 * .141 = .423 NC after changes Rounds per second: 60 / 209 = .287 Weapon Damage: 76 x 6 = 456 x 2 = 912 Shots needed: 1000 / 912 = 2 TTK: 2 - 1 = 1 * .287 = .287
Makes me laugh. An OP faction wanting a fix. Heres how I fix NC Maxes...Log in my NC toon. Place C4 on NC Max and enjoy. Rinse and repeat =)
Clearly you haven't spent the time to read because if you did you'd realize that the only thing we're OP in is in 8m or less situations. These "Fixes" that your laughing at actually address that OPness a bit while, at the same time, fixing areas that we're severely lacking in to bring about BALANCE.
I agree that damage degradation is already a limiting factor concerning range, so damage fall off in shotgun is kind of silly imo, at least with the spread we have. Concerning the 12 people thing : if each bullet deals 167 damage, killing 1 guy is equivalent to 5.98 bullets, so let's round up to 6. So you dealt 1002 damage. Only 2 damage point has been "wasted". So, on 12 guys, you will waste 2*12=24 damage. Not so much. Slow firing means higher alpha damage. Hacksaw max damage : 125*6=750 damage (we do agree that this is damage under 8 meters with all pellet hitting, so with hacksaw spread, it's more a 4 meters shot). You need 2 bullets for 1 guys => 1500 damage. So you waste 500 damage per guy=> 6000 damage wasted on 12 people. You still needs 2 bullets to kill a guys, so to kill 12 people, you need 24 shots, not 16 like you mentioned in your number crunching. You may consider hitting several guys with 1 shot thanks to the spread, but this may involve 2 guys, maybe 3, and if this happens your likely that some pellets will miss too. Most damage are chosen so that you need close to a whole number of bullet to kill a guys, but this is not the case with NC MAX shotgun. So, killing 12 guys is not just dealing 12000 damage, it's 24 shots and that's 18000 damage.
My bad, plz excuse my poor choice of words...Let me try this again. Heres how I bring "Balance" to Maxes from OP factions. Log on to NC toon. Place C4 on NC Max. Sit back and enjoy rage tells while sipping on coffee. Rinse and repeat. After all, nothings says "Balance" like a good brick of C4.
Good thread! Only objection: NC max will need to have a higher TTK in killing infantry in CQC? This needs some thoughts, NC maxes are clearly worse than TR/VS maxes at range, and now they will suck at CQC too?
I see what you're saying now. We get the short end of the stick on that one because we do large chunks of damage, but that's just the nature of the gun. My proposed changes should help this a little because it will be smaller chunks and a faster reload, but by how much is something I'll figure out right now. NC TTK 1 Infantry: .287 Shots needed for 1: 2 Shots needed for 12: 2 x 12 = 24 Shots per clip: 6 Reloads needed: 1 TTK 12 Infantry: 12 -1 = 11 x .287 = 3.157 + 4 = 7.157 NC after changes TTK 1 Infantry: .287 Shots needed for 1: 2 Shots needed for 12: 2 x 12 = 24 Total shots per clip: 20 Reloads needed: 1 TTK 12 Infantry: 12 -1 = 11 x .287 = 3.157 + 2 = 5.157 So, with my changes things will be pretty balanced. No sir! Continue reading, those were just mathmatical errors. Look at post 7.
Why not up the rate of fire? Also, I'd like to see how these figures project outward. Keeping things proportional, at 18 meters each pellet would be doing 25 damage, and this is on top of much fewer hitting due to spread. It's terrible as is, making it half as effective would be a deathblow to the shotgun arms. If slugs were made proportionally less damaging they would also be completely useless as they rely entirely on their alpha because magdumping isn't an option with them if you enjoy hitting things with bullets, meaning that bigger mags and higher ROF don't help them at all. The net result would be the NC MAX would actually be substantially worse at real combat ranges than it is now unless you're running two fully upgraded premium priced Mattocks, in which case it would only be noticably worse. I like your thought and your presentation, but I don't think switching from "worst at anti-MAX, best at AI" to "worst at AI, best at anti-MAX" is a great endgame considering how sweeping the changes are. NC MAXes will pull Falcons if it's MAXes they're hunting and this wont change that, it just means they'll pull Falcons for AI too.
lol, ignore that whole post.. I spent so much time on this thread while already being tired and working 12 hours that my brain was similar to the consistency of pudding lol. To sum it up, I saw a problem that didn't exist in the first place and I kinda just snowballed the issue from there. So just ignore that specific post, everything else after it is correct. I touch on all the things you mention in my other posts.... Even our damage extended outward.
Ah, so it was. Sorry I was posting from my phone at the time and it gets quite testy when I start typing/quote something The damage at range looks about like what I thought it would in terms of perfect world scenarios. I really wish they would've just gone with chokes instead of 4 different arms of slightly different spread.
So essentially, you're looking for props for being a troll. I literally cannot understand how people like you end up so sad.
