[Suggestion] My NC AI MAX Suggested *FIXES*

Discussion in 'MAX' started by InfernoKoV, Feb 11, 2014.

  1. InfernoKoV

    I hate trolls.
  2. Ocaml

    I think that reducing NC MAX shotgun damage by 40% while increasing their clip size is right idea. I think that additionally reducing ROF by 20% will be the right idea:
    1. VS Nebula TTK vs standard soldier (1000 HP, no certs) is 0.423 sec. Total 2030 DPS for two arms.
    2. New NC Hacksaw TTK will be 0.359 sec. Total 2505 DPS for two arms.
    At the same time:
    1. Base clip size must be increased to around 15 (18 for Grinder). Extended magazines will add 7 (9 for Grinder) rounds.
    2. Pellet spread must be reduced somewhere in between 1 - 1.5 (must be tested).
    3. Slug damage must be reduced also, of course.
    Now we have NC MAX with slightly better CQC against other MAXes but not completely useless outdoors.
  3. InfernoKoV

    We simply can't have clip sizes that large without significantly reducing our damage. With clips that large will we literally SHRED other MAXs. Reducing the ROF, however, has it's pros and cons and it messes with other things which will lead to more adjustments that need to be made. I didn't mess with ROF because I feel it is fine as it is, but I am willing to make adjustments to it outside the 10m range since we are capable of doing a lot of damage and a reduction in spread without this ROF change could be a little OP.
  4. Sargentmki

    I like the idea behind this but changing the spread, and damage ratios really throw the NC max ability to hit hard at closer ranges but keeps them just as deadly at OP ranges. The most important thing to consider is that you don't really need or can aim the shotguns at midranges, so unlike the TR and VS weapons which need to be aimed to hit targets at the same ranges. Where as longer range shotguns can be fired at whole boddies for near max damage. Such ease of killing at longer ranges would cause quiet a problem with players. The spreads of the shotguns really make or break them more than damage values.
    Right now the NC option to kill maxes are grinders which have enough raw damages to kill enemy maxes at pointblank ranges.(do it all the time)

    The mattocks with slugs are fairly effective against infantry and I would consider to be better than your proposed cannon changes mainly because they reward players for aiming (which you don't need to do with normal rounds)


    You can't make the NC shotguns get more accurate without pushing their CQC powers into OP land.Giving them more rounds or less reload times for the less damaging options(such as increased reload for slug rounds) is more appealing.
  5. InfernoKoV

    This is why the damage is reduced... Also, as with all weapons, damage degrades over distance. The idea was never to have pinpoint accuracy, but enough to where we actually hit things when we aim properly. All in all, we would be on par with everyone else.
  6. minhalexus

    So here is my fix:

    A shotgun with extended mags: Current reload speed
    A shoutgun without extended mags: 40% less reload speed

    So lets take the hacksaw reload speed for example:

    With ex mags: 3.2/4.0
    Without exmags: 1.9 /2.4

    NC max without exmags is completely useless at the moment. Exmags fall under the category of 'Mandatory' than 'Complementary'.

    Giving an upside of not using Exmags will actually benefit NC players who do not wish to spend a 1000 certs for each AI loadout.

    This will also increase the NC max TTK against other maxes, which as you stated currently is:

    TTK: 14 / 2 = 7 - 1 = 6 * .287 = 1.722 + 4 = 5.722

    If they alter the changes then it would be:

    14 / 2 = 7 - 1 = 6 * .287 = 1.722 + 2.4 = 4.17 seconds


    Which will give the NC max a 0.5 second faster TTK than other maxes in CQC. It isnt that much but atleast it isnt broken like it currently is.
  7. InfernoKoV

    Having extended mags effect reload speed wouldn't make sense. My suggested fixes alread fix the issue for the most part and although we would still be .1 second slower at killing MAXs one should keep in mind that is INCLUDING the 2 second reload. If a MAX is already damaged in any way, we would obliterate them. As a mentioned in my post, without the reload our TTK against a MAX is 2.87 seconds which is crazy fast.
    • Up x 1
  8. Epic High Five

    Giving a gun with terrible damage degradation (on top of both spread and bloom) a tighter COF and more rounds doesn't help at all - just look at the C85 Canister, because that's exactly the changes they made to it. More pellets hit sometimes, fewer hit most of the time, and no matter what you're looking at ~50 damage a pellet outside of 18m so it really doesn't even MATTER how many hit.

    Slugs would also be entirely useless if brought down in damage by the %'s suggested above. Buckshot is already a trap, it cannot be made such that it's also our only viable option. This is my #1 concern because I consider slugs to be the only real option for an NC MAX if they're running shotgun arms, and if that's removed and buckshot is the only choice, then Falcons will be the only real option.

    I dunno, I like that the NC MAX is an alpha monster, that's the NC's thing and why I joined. I don't mind the long *** reloads because I can plan around those, and I don't mind being slightly worse against MAXes because I'm slightly better against infantry. Flavor again, like how the Vanguard is horrible at AI but fantastic at AV, but nobody minds because it's so much fun sometimes to have a horribly lopsided loadout be your best bet.
    • Up x 2
  9. Ceskaz

    This is wrong. Not aiming with a shotgun only results in less damage, making them worthless. NC MAX have so few ammo in its mag, wasting them by vaguely aiming is the best way to get caught off guard reloading (and dying in the process).
    I'm a bit dramatic there but saying that NC MAX doesn't have to aim is just wrong. Plus, with low bullet veocity, we have to lead target more than TR or VS MAX (at shotgun range, it's not so much leading, but still a bit)
    • Up x 1
  10. InfernoKoV

    The thing that hurts our shotguns the most is nature of the shotgun. If you widen the spread it is easier to hit targets at range, but at the same time less pellets are hitting the target resulting in less damage. However, if you tighten the spread you risk missing even more and it becomes much more crucial to aim. On top of this issue is the fact that the ROF is so slow compared to conventional weapons, so we have to be precise and ritualistic with our shots because we have so few while the other MAXs get to "spray and pray". With the shotguns we don't have the luxury of being able to adjust our shots on the fly... By this I mean that we don't see where our shots are going as well and it's much harder to make adjustments to lead our target.

    There's only so many things that can be done to help remedy this, but it will never be completely fixed without straying from having a shotgun as a weapon. They could vastly increase the bullet velocity so that it hits almost immediately at range so we don't have to adjust to lead a target. Adding tracers to make our pellets more apparent will also help, not only in giving us visual queues as to where our shots are actually going, but it would also act as a type of suppression to the enemy making them visually see the shots whiz past their heads.

    There's also one small thing I've noticed, but never tested. With the slug ammunition it seems as though the shots don't fire directly from the center of your sight all the time. It's almost as if the game calculates a normal shot, picks a single pellet, and then spreads out from that point. Instead it should should spread out from the center of our sight. It's very apparent when you have a stationary target that's at a good distance of about 30m or so and you completely miss them even though you aim directly at them. Either what I stated above is true or the pellets spread so much that they go completely around the target. Either way you would think at least 1 pellet would hit.
  11. Sargentmki

    ^ your theory on the slug spread i believe is correct.

    I am somewhat warming up to your idea of basically increasing the skill cap of the NC MAX. Shifting it from what is positioning to aiming(which really is only needed to any degree with slugs.)

    I do feel that if you nerf the damage, and increase the accuracy, slugs would become the mainstay of NC max cannons. Since many feel they are superior for better consistency at the cost of damage anyways it wont take more to make them just a better choice overall.

    Slugs shouldn't be the mainstay for a number of reasons, mainly it would add ANOTHER vital buy for NC MAXES and it MAY make them powerful enough to dominate other maxes and infantry at close ranges and still kill infantry just as fast at now. All due to higher mag size, much lower pellet damage and quicker reload with the SAME shot damage.


    I feel these changes would be very valid if they changed slugs for each of the guns instead of the current 500 damage and high damage dropoff model. Otherwise more accurate, high mag NC shotguns will be incredibly dominating.
  12. InfernoKoV

    One thing I never understood was the steep damage degradation when the pellet spread itself achieves the same thing. If they adjusted the steepness they wouldn't have to mess with the spread as much to have better range.
    • Up x 2
  13. Ceskaz

    It's just the base cone of fire of the weapon, like any weapon IG. With shotgun, CoF induce deviation from the center. Pellet spread add spread around this random CoF center.
  14. SenEvason

    Has anyone ever though about throwing a couple Wardens on their MAX? 250 damage per shot with decent range and velocity. It might be interesting.
  15. minhalexus

    Using slugs is feels like using a sniper rifle without ADS.

    Slugs in practical situations give you a worse TTK, than the VS/TR max in killing infantry. (at 10m)

    Firstly you miss a lot more, and secondly you have to land 3 shots to get the kill. (5-10m)

    If you look at the most ideal realistic situation its:
    2 shots + 0.8seconds chamber time + 1 shot = about 1 second to kill one infantry

    Reducing the chamber time while using slugs will help a lot.

    But in reality slugs miss a lot more, so its more than that.
    • Up x 1
  16. Mastachief

    Your stats do not survive once you hit the live game with moving targets and human error/skill factors. The maxes with more shots in a clip will always prevail in the live game based on your proposed stats atleast as a pure cqb monster the ai nc max gets to be king some of the time. Leave the NC AI max alone and let the whiners whine there is no happy place for a shotgun max.
  17. Edelhonk

    So let me get this straight

    You want the NC MAX untouched in CQC (because 0-.287 is the same we have now) but at the same time you wont a buff for the NC AI vs multiple targets and longer range...not to mention that all your little math need a 100% hit ration from the VS and TR MAX when the NC AI can MISS with 45% of their pellets.

    Yeah man...sounds totally balanced and like a nice "fix" (damn...so much sarcasm in such a short sentence)

    Sry, but i never laughed so hard

    If you want the range and ammo Capacity of the TR and VS then give up your CQC power (and NO ...your example doesnt).

    Dont get me wrong...im 100% for a change of the NC MAX to give them more power for fights outside 15-20m but i am against the NC MAX godmode **** we had in beta.

    If you want a change for the NC MAX they need a 100% rethinking of their weapons.
    Maybe with some new range AI weapons like some heavy bolt rifles (damage 200-250 but slow firing rate of 200-150 RPM) and at the same time VS and TR get some CQC AI alternatives that got the power of the NC shotguns (Flamer and Plasmaburner as example).
  18. Goretzu

    Honestly the very best fix for the NC AI MAX weapons is to put in choked modes (al la PS1 NC AI MAXs).

    Messing around with other things might help (and decreasing damage per shot whilst increasing shots per mag would likely help), but without choked modes you can never mesh LMGs with Shotguns.
  19. JonboyX

    No one should be using an AI max outdoors. I think your solution is one to a "non-problem".

    The NC max is what a max should be; a tough, high damage, short range, shock trooper. I'd question whether we should even have slugs, given it lets you plink at range. Personally speaking; I don't feel maxes shouldn't be taking down infantry at carbine ranges.

    IMO, it's the VS and TR maxes that are out of place having range and/or suppression, but no spike option. The ZOE ability tried to address that and made them viable indoors (but stupidly quick and with too long a range). Same intention with lock down (marmite).

    Now; you can argue whether spike > suppression or vice versa, but I know what seems to work best for me.
  20. CptFirelord

    TR
    Rounds per second: 60 / 492 = .122
    Weapon Damage: 125 x 2 = 250
    Shots needed: 1000 / 250 = 4
    TTK: 4 - 1 = 3 * .122 = .366

    VS
    Rounds per second: 60 / 426 = .141
    Weapon Damage: 143 x 2 = 286
    Shots needed: 1000 / 286 = 4
    TTK: 4 - 1 = 3 * .141 = .423
    Dafuq? VS stats = better than TR but TR = quicker TTK? Lolwut? How bout no. I think you have your stats backwards sir.