MBT vs C4

You mean, you need to take care of your tank now?

teamplay works both ways, why not have a team mate to help cover your tank? both another tank or infantry covering you increases your chances.

Why do people drive tanks if best and easiest way to kill another tank is a LA with C4?

I love this thread.

A guy posts images of his 60KDR as a defense to why he is good and C4 is bad because it kills him. As if it somehow okay that people should be able to get 60KDR in a FPS game, and secondly that one of the only counters to this rampage is OP, while the tank isn't. Glorious!

People yell at C4 being easymode when they on average probably cost 400-600 resources pr successful attempt overall. People die all the time by trying to get to a tank, after deploying one, after deploying two and not being able to detonate etc etc.

Discounting the gunner cover - gunners are there to cover you. If you don't have one then you have no say here. If you have different setups to enhance your primary fire you have no say here. If you don't have the best AI weapon equipped you have no say here.
Complaining about infantry AV counters without using AI counters readily available is just silly.

Discounting infantry cover - there is no such thing as a front line tank. Tanks are there to take out other tanks and to provide cover for the infantry and lighter vehicles, not to earn you 60KDR.


Making IRL arguments against C4. Well, fine, IRL tanks die to a single AV missile. Should we implement one lancer hit kills a MBT? You know, just for realism? Tanks are slow, easily disabled, should we make it so one grenade can take your tracks off and make you immobile while you wait for an engineer spending five hours fixing you?

Vehicles are usually strong (in damage) in other games because they are limited, require support and can die quite easily. In this game you can pull multiple alone and you can get insane streaks from it. You don't die easily outside of C4 as you can just back out to cover and repair. You want strong tanks? Fine. Spawn 20 tanks in the middle of each tank and limit it to that and you can have strong tanks. As long as a) tanks can be one-manned and b) tanks are plentyful you can't have strong tanks. Sorry.

While i like the fact that lights can kill tanks quite effectively I do think it encourages very passive tank play, it also makes sunderers extremely easy to kill which ruins infantry pushes. They need to work out a line for the infantry explosives to have an effect and be worth the resources but not ruin various gameplay elements.

I personally would have a setup time and only have it take one mine / C4 to blow up the target, but that one takes longer to place than tossing it out of your backpack like a grenade

That's wrong.

You mean the crew won't die if a anti vehicle missile/grenade penetrate the armor and explode inside?
You mean the tank won't be immobilized if a shape charge is placed on the tracks and blow them off?

Please sir, tell me more.

Show me a video of a 5th generation tank getting destroyed by a man-portable rocket.
And by destroyed, I mean destroyed. Not the crew getting shaken up, not one guy getting injured, not the tank getting detracked.
Hard Mode: Show me a video of a 5th Gen tank getting destroyed by Man Portable weapons, before it gets its' main gun into range. (Around 4000m).
Protip: You can't

just going to expose what a bad C4 gamer i am.

i did some math based on my own score.
i thought i was doing alright till i saw these numbers.

as it turns out, i have 10% of my total kills as C4 kills.
since i don't only hunt tanks with it, you can't consider them all to be tank/sunderer kills.
last night for instance i had some very nice group kills because they were clustered up together.



the way i see it, if we go as far as to say each c4 was a tank kill, then i used 682 infantry resources to get rid of each tank.
that was also when the cost was 250.

but lets face it, i also hunt MAX, i hunt other infantry, i hunt air, i hunt everything that farging moves and it not on my side, i throw myself at the enemy and from the numbers we can at least partly conclude that they win almost as much as i do, since my KD is 1.35.

C4 imo is fine, i'm sure that if we were to use the same calc on you tank guys, the numbers would be alot different.
i have a very good MBT driver in my outfit called ESKA, i've seen him in action and he uses that tank to its very limit.

how about you guys start doing the same.

you boldly posts 50/1 KD, eska posts 100/1 KD, because he's always got a gunner, he's always on the move and he NEVER sits still longer than 2-3 shots and then he's out of the spot.

yeah, Eska gets C4'ed like everyone else does and yes he ******* about it, but that's because he got outplayed, you get outplayed, we all get outplayed, the difference is, we don't go crying for nerfs because we got wiped, yeah we ***** and moan on Teamspeak and then we move on.

grow a farging pair and take some responsability for your own inattentiveness.

The cost of C4 is fine, you should start to pay attention to your game and quit ya ********.

Hagestol apparently your statement about a grenade blowing off the tracks in RL maybe wrong, but according to the response you got the rest of your post is solid.

Well, this is the future so I'm going on RL average and not by the current situation right now for one specific really rare generation of tanks. My special corps buddy actually practiced this so I know it is possible at least, but perhaps they have found counters to the current way of doing it. It doesn't matter

My point was just that RL arguments are extremely silly in a futuristic game, and using it as a crutch in an argument is even more so.

I mean the crew getting killed or put out of action or the tank being disabled. And I love this line of argument.

"I want somenthing fixed, and if you want to keep the current implementation you have to prove that it isn't OP"
Burden of proof is on you. Show me tank drivers with less than 1 KDR, meaning they don't get kills because they die so quickly. Show me something. Outside of whinging about C4 infantry as a counter to thoughtless drivers.


I don't know enough about the current generation of tanks, but just because they haven't found one-manned counters to the current generation doesn't mean they won't. It is an idiotic statement. Its like saying that windows 14 will be hacker free because nobody has hacked it and thus all hacking in any movie ever is invalid.

I never whined, I never asked for C4 to get nerfed. I just pointed out tanks don't go down as easily as the internet thinks.
You may have thought it, but I never said it.

At the moment we have a high value asset that has a deploy timer and a high resource cost (MBTs) being killed easily by an asset that has no deploy time (well, 10 second) and a low resource cost (Infantry with C4).

Infantry can be revived after a failed C4 attempt, they can respawn for 0 resource cost after a failed C4 attempt.

A tank cannot be reassembled after it is blown up. So it should be very hard or somewhat expensive to C4 a tank. At the moment it's not hard and not expensive.

Then I apologize. And I know they don't go down so easily IRL, but they also require more than one person to man them and they cost millions - and probably a hundred or so times the amount it costs to destroy them.

For all the realism arguments out there I doubt anyone would like to see C4 costing 2 resources a piece. You know, for the realism perspective.

How many people does it require to pull a tank? Is it hard? Does it have a timer? How long time does it take to earn back the cost?

When the answer to all these questions is hard /costly then I'd agree that it shouldn't have solo counters. Which they don't anyways because LA are easy to shoot with a gunned tank.

if its not very hard then why are people bothering to drive tanks? surely everyone is just running round as LA with C4 to kill tanks. so why are you using tanks? as they arent the most effective way to destroy a tank so what are you using them for?

Awhile back C4 was changed so that it despawns when the person that placed it respawns, so unless a Medic can get to him you're more or less safe once the LA is dead - aside from a shot from another source detonating the C4 before he respawns.

Not quite. So long as the person does not respawn, there will be C4 stuck to my tank.
Using a tank requires teamwork, so C4 can also use teamwork. One stray bullet or rocket will set off that C4 and destroy the tank.

yeah, its unfair that you can die while you are in a tank. enemy infantry should have to run down a straight corridor at you in an orderly fashion.

Except that most times, a medic isn't just waiting right next to your line of 15 tanks to rez a LA. If a LA is going to be rezzed next to your tank, you have probably lost the battle already. If a medic can get that close to you then a bunch of heavies/maxes probably have you in the firing line too.

It also costs a lot of resource points for failed attempts. The hard counter to LA with c4 is just to reverse. I know that sounds complicated but sometimes if you try really hard you can pull it off. That or have a gunner in your tank for just such an occasion. If i die 4-5 times trying to get to you (and you never move in that whole time), or am picked off before I can push the trigger (which is slower than a sloth on rhino tranqs.) Don't you think you deserved a death?

As light assault the most common kills I get with c4 are when theres a group of say 5-6 tanks together near a tree. Just sitting there firing away, only getting out to repair every so often. They just refuse to move, and thats not my fault. Thats not C4's fault. Thats the drivers fault. Mostly this happens in big zergs where people think ha, we have these guys outnumbered. We can just roll over this base easy. They get careless.

I mean how often do you find yourself without enough resources to get into another vehicle? shock horror that you might have to play infantry for 5 minutes and be at the mercy of all those other guys in their tanks. But it's okay! you can spend that time blowing up entire cities with the OP C4!

So tanks should be spec'd to farm infantry?

I cannot kill an enemy tank with one shot (or even 2 shots, and that includes the rear) using the best anti-tank weapon available for any tanker in PS 2- Vanguard AP rounds, so I need the Enforcer as a force multiplier, and even then some enemies get behind cover and repair.
Same story with infantry vs vehicles- it takes a lot of dedication to kill a tank with a bazooka.

Infantry has it much easier, because once the enemy is getting torn apart by machine gun fire, rarely does he/she survive.
Then there's C4.

If it does absolutely no damage except for rear or top hits, doesn't kill instantly but sets on fire when it does penetrate, and not even the Decimator and AV turret do any damage to the front, to make it realistic, I'll be perfectly fine with it.

The car in the video in the first post apparently had more HE filler than a grenade, yet the tank didn't lose its suspension when it blew up.

Module damage would be cool, but given that this is a shooter, repairs should take like 15-30 seconds.

Also, for realism, death should be permanent and a new account should be required, so let's not overdo it.

Yes. Tanks should have their secondary specced for AI if they want to kill infantry, which are counters to vehicles in PS2.

You can't expect to win against other vehicles that have 2x AV weapons, but said tanks are weak against C4 so they made that choice. Remember that you're not alone in this game, if you see AVAV tanks then simply wait for allied C4 to arrive at the target. It is "much easier" than tanking remember, so it will come soon enough.

Or do you want to win vehicle fights and infantry fights with one spec?

Fine, you want the advantages of the IRL tank, you have to take the cost. 4-5 crew, at least maximum available resources cost and C4 would cost 1/100th of what the tank costs.

And when it penetrates, the tank is left on fire and most if not all the crew dies. Then I'd be fine with no frontal damage from infantry AV.


PS1 had it right - tanks could be hacked and couldn't take everything but they were strong. They also required a driver and a gunner, kinda like the harasser is now. Balance should always trump RL, which is why C4 costs 200 resources pr attempt and you can solo drive and gun your own tank. If they make MBTs require drivers and gunnters then all these arguments would be valid. But they don't, so it has to be balanced around the lightning, which can also be solo-manned.

The resource cost is only a third of the argument, the cert cost is the other two thirds.

I have put 6904 certs into my tank currently, a c4 user only needs to spend 700 to get a weapon set that can instagib me, significantly less certs than all other forms of AV and requiring no teammates to help with the damage. No other form of AV instagibs tanks in as short a space of time, they all require combined arms.

I am asking only that 2 bricks of c4 take a tank down to critical damage, thus requiring some of your teammates to finish me off and me and/or my gunner to get out to repair. Given the cert for cert outlay i feel that this is a minimal (if rather generous to the c4 users) tweak. if i meet a similarly equipped/certed tank on the field and we fight, the winner whoever it is will leave with near critical damage.

Certs breakdown:

• Acquisition timer: 1,10,30,50,100,150,200
• Utility Slot (proximity radar): 100,200,400,500
• Defense Slot (nanite auto repair): 30,50,100,200,500
• Performance Slot (racer chassis): 100,200,400
• Primary Weapon (P2-120 AP): 1000
  • Ammo Capacity: 1,10,30,50,100
  • Optics: 1,50
  • Utility (reload): 1,50,200,400
• Secondary Weapon E540 Haberd: 750
  • Ammo Capacity: 1,10,30,50,100
  • Reload Speed: 150,200,400

There is no direct counter to c4 from a tank/sunderer perspective, none of the armour options negate the damage nor does mineguard. Proximity radar is the only option which helps a little and to make it effective we are required to spend 1200 certs for 50m early warning that a 'dot' is out there.

In short there is a massive imbalance in the base cost vs the effectiveness of c4 vs tanks/sunderers.

FYI:
I am a dedicated tanker, i get my kicks fighting enemy armor when it shows up, sunderers and other vehicles.
I am not really interested in killing infantry except when they directly threaten myself or my squad.
I loathe the fact that spawn areas are so exposed and infantry can be pinned down so easily with vehicles (this as i have stated many times is a base design/layout issue not a vehicle issue).
I always run with a gunner.
I am always part of an organised squad or platoon usually escorting the platoon sunderer.