Make Magrider worth it

I just call it as i see it.

If it used to be; Mag >>> Prowler > Vanguard in terms of ease of access to terrain,
and now its; Mag > Prowler > Vanguard, thats a big change to the balance.

Or to put it another way.
If previously the tanks could easily access certain percentages of terrain, for argument sake lets say:
Mag - 90%
Prowler - 75%
Vanguard - 60%
(so the van could access 60% of the global terrain 'easily'.)
and the balance for those tanks, as often stated around here, is related to maneouvering and ease of access to terrain.
You cant change the P and V values and leave M the same, it doesnt make sense, unless of course you change other factor of balance, which they havent.
So if the new %s are:
Mag - 90%
Prowler - 85%
Vanguard - 80%
Youve just removed 66% of the mags terrain advantage over the prowler and vanguard and given it nothing in return.

Add to this the fact that the mag used to be able to accelerate (with burn) over 100% faster than a vanguard and prowler, and now its like 50% faster, youve also just removed most of the advantage afforded them by their tank ability.


Disclaimer - Ive used hyperbolic percentages in order to explain my point, some may be accurate but i doubt it.
Either way what i described is what has happened in game, albeit to differing values.

Again, im just calling it as i see it.
I like a challenge, fighting VS in any tank feels less challenging now, that disappoints me.

There's a huge difference between "reach" and "use".

For example outside of combat, your numbers are pretty good. But during combat you heavily limit the amount of ground the Prowler and Vanguard can use, simply because the Vanguard and Prowler have a much more limited maneuverability and capability.

Example:
In this picture you see a road like many in PS2. The road itself is smooth, there's some cover about and some more steep terrain on the sides, in this case so steep that the Magrider can't even climb it! Magrider is going to be at a disadvantage here, right?
Well no it's not going to be at a disadvantage. Outside of the rocks for cover, any terrain on the right basically means the Van/Prowler needs to push the enemy or die trying, but that also means either standing still for accurate shots while fully exposed or firing on the move and have horrid accuracy because even the relatively smooth terrain around this road has enough bumps and holes to screw your shot at the last moment. The Van/Prowler just doesn't have enough mobility to quickly pop back into that cover from those positions.
On the left you do have more space, but going around that bend means you can only slowly see more of your enemy, and backing up will never get you back into cover if the enemy pursues you a little.
And that's a far-cry from how a Magrider experiences it. That area on the right? Prime terrain to dodge shots, retaliate and when in doubt your tank will always be capable of hopping back into the cover regardless of where you were facing. Additionally you can do this with multiple Magriders, which would be unthinkable with a Van/Prowler as any MBT behind you will instantly have a great effect on your maneuverability options. Sure this carries the "disadvantage" for the Magrider that they are more likely to bump into eachother, but that's a first-world problem for the Magrider rather than a real disability.


So in effect, during combat the Van/Prowler can use about 30 to 40% of the terrain visible if we are generous, with the Prowler a little bit more due to it's higher speed and mobility. In the meantime the Magrider has access to 70% of the picture, with most of it's inaccessibility due to the massive mountain slope on the left.
And then back to your original numbers: Why would a Vanguard/Prowler want to use their 60/75% of the terrain they can use? Just because they can doesn't mean it's smart. When outside of combat that Van/Prowler isn't going to have any real advantage using that terrain unless there's a hill they can crest for avoiding what would otherwise be a chokepoint or a few shots, and it's not as if 60/75% of the map is made out of terrain that encourages that kind of movement, especially due to the inherent weakness of a Van/Prowler in that terrain should it get spotted and engaged by a Magrider and the higher potential that infantry can engage you somewhat effectively.

I wish they updated the API and released it again. I think they know internally but they really need to give the players the stats back to look up.

All of this is true if you have one zerg versus the other battling at the corner, but if its one on one the mag is toast at this location, especially against a vangaurd. Good prowler and vangaurd crews know that charging a magrider is as close a guaranteed win as your get in this game. This is made even easier now with the increased top speed, acceleration and hill climbing.

Things I've noticed since the last patch:

* Places that used to be safe are no longer so.
* Your time to react at close/mid range is reduced.
* At long range tanks are harder to hit as they are moving about much more.

Definitely on the receiving end more often at the moment with a mag.

Mag has the ability to disengage with ability to strafe during it.

Also, to lighten your day:
Magrider is getting the prowler reload advantage rather than the Prowler having it.
PTS is a good place to survey the upcoming changes.

Good lord, a balanced reply. I'm not sure this is allowed. Needs more insults and petty faction bias.

As experienced Vanguard driver with above average stats I'll tell you: rushing a Mag is a sure-fire way to expose yourself and get dumped upon by the Mag.
Also in that region a Mag has a lot of advantages that give him the advantage in a 1v1. Its not a sure-fire win for the Mag, but the terrain there is in its favor of him and will give the Mag more often the advantage. As opponent of the Mag you cant ever assume the Mag is alone (neither can the Mag assume you are alone), so unless you have some pretty good intel rushing is a sin.

I've played all 3 factions heavily, let me share:

TR
Prowler:
HE - Infantry farming on lockdown, mainly Esamir. Fairly useless otherwise.
HEAT - Very few good places to lockdown, can destroy bases very quickly, otherwise useless.
AP - Very few good places to lockdown, those places are good, useless when not on a plateaued hill/cliff.
Performance - Fast and good turning. Bad damage when not locked down, requires extremely high positional skill to use.

MAX:
Anti-Infantry - Best weapon to use is Pounders, which are AV, overall useless.
Anti-Vehicle - Best weapon to use is, again, Pounders, which are extremely effective but only when locked down.
Anti-MAX - Best weapon to use is, surprise, Pounders, which are the best anti-MAX weapons except tanks, rockets, C4 and Archers.

NC
Vanguard:
HE - Very unlikely not to kill someone when fired, mediocre against vehicles, can always be backed up by a top gun or shield.
HEAT - Strong against everything, can always be backed up by a top gun or shield.
AP - Strong against everything, can always be backed up by a top gun or shield.
Performance - Sluggish. Strong damage at all times, requires little to no skill to use.

MAX:
Anti-Infantry - Best AI of all MAXes, can kill half a squad with Mattocks between reloads.
Anti-Vehicle - Best AV of all MAXes, can kill anything with Ravens or Falcons depending solely on range.
Anti-MAX - The shotguns are stronger Anti-MAX than even Pounders if you can get close enough and get some headshots.

VS
Magrider:
HE - Very unlikely not to kill someone when fired, useless against vehicles, requires a little bit of movement skill to position.
HEAT - Mediocre against everything, requires a little bit of movement skill to position and ambush.
AP - Strong against vehicles, can flank and destroy with some skill, can be backed up with the Saron.
Performance - Slow but can strafe to dodge shots at range. Requires some skill to use.

MAX:
Anti-Infantry - When activated/deactivated with skill, ZOE can allow this MAX to outmaneuver and slaughter infantry one by one.
Anti-Vehicle - The worst MAX for AV in the game, this is not an option.
Anti-MAX - The worst MAX vs MAX unit in the game.

Overall
Prowlers require a lot of positional knowledge and skill to use, otherwise they're the weakest tank in the game, this positional knowledge is also situational and the tank cannot be used effectively (or more effectively) in most situations outside of open field combat. They also need to hit both shells to make up their damage advantage which is very difficult with recoil between shots. They are the most vulnerable tank to C4 drops due to the vulnerability of locking down.

TR MAXes are the worst at Anti-Infantry and are highly vulnerable against tanks while locked down but can beat down enemy MAXes well when equipped with Pounders. Locking down leaves them vulnerable when outside of a building, leaving them useless in open field combat when not used with great positional skill.

Vanguards require very little skill to use effectively, they can peek and fire, then shield and reverse out of danger when they are fired at, or use their shield to save themselves from C4 or Tank Mines with a little skill.

NC MAXes are the strongest Anti-Infantry, Anti-Vehicle and even Anti-MAX MAXes in the game when a little self-preservation is enacted. The Aegis Shield can save them from certain death in uncountable situations.

Magriders can dodge tank shells at range by strafing, making them the strongest tank v tank vehicle in the game at extreme range combat. They can also enter bases and kill up close like harassers when piloted with skill. The Saron is extremely dangerous against tanks, infantry and harassers alike. Magburner and their inherent floating allows them to position themselves on top of many obstacles or buildings by shimmying and gliding. Their omnidirectionality also allows them to dodge C4 unlike any other tank. They are only ineffective when used like a regular tank, when used like a large Harasser they are nigh unstoppable.

VS MAXes are extremely effective against infantry when used with skill, but poor against vehicles and other MAXes. ZOE can be activated and deactivated like a heavy shield now, allowing bursts of bloodletting between retreating or even using the ZOE to dodge shots. It requires great skill to use, but is very dangerous against infantry when done appropriately.

You just said NC's maxes can clear a room , with Mattlocks.
The RNG shotguns, with what 12 rounds.
You can deplete a magazine on someone at 10 meters away or less.
Unless the squad is brain dead, any of them can reverse, fire rockets, or normal weapons fire while the Max runs out of ammo.
Reloading for long enough to die.

You also think TR maxes are the worst at AI.
With numerous rapid-fire quick reloading weapons with a longer range.
With NC being called the best.

I need whatever you are smoking.

Please explain that statement. Even when not ancored, the prowler still has the highest dps of all 3 mbts. Anchor is not needed to have a very good dps on the prowler, what it does, is turning the very good dps into a stupendous good dps + muzzle velocity bonus. On top of that, the prowler is the fastest mbt, an attribute many players wrongly connect with the magrider, often times.

Looks like you are a bit confused.
Just a few examples:
The biggest and worst offence is saying the TR Prowler has bad damage unless locked down. Dude, even without locking down the Prowler deals 1,5 times the DPS of the Vanguard, which completely overwhelms the armor advantage the Vanguard has. Add to that the advantage of better speed and mobility and the Vanguard is woefully underpowered compared to the Prowler. Hell, even the dual-shot only helps the Prowler. It reduces the punishment for misses and allows faster target acquisition at range. Also, "the recoil"? The Prowler barely has any, in fact even the Vanguard, which is supposed to have this immense recoil, barely has any.
You think Prowler HE is inferior to NC HE, and in fact you think that the NC HE is better at AV than the Prowler which simply isn't true, again due to the DPS difference. Also I've been using HE a lot recently (gotta aurax them weapons) and they are ideal for attacking enemy tank groups from a flank. Pick out a damaged vehicle that's about to repair and you can instantly damage both the tank and it's crew, rather than going up in a repair vs DPS battle that you often have with AP which increases the likelyhood of being discovered.
You think the NC MAX is the best at AI, and that Mattocks can kill half a squad between reloads. While they have the potential to do that, it's highly unlikely. It's like assuming a sniper will headshot 100% of the time.
You think that the NC tank weapons "can always be backed up by a top-gun or shield". The Vanguard itself is a bad, bad tank, the shield is mandatory. Without it the Vanguard will simply be scrap metal in most cases.
You think Prowlers require tons of positional skill. It's the Magriders and Vanguards that require that skill. The Magrider most of all because it's got the lowest armor rating (equal to Prowler), lowest damage output (by a tiny marging compared to the Vanguard, will be changed in the CA update) and slowest movement, but this can be offset by it's far superior movement and capabilities to fire on the move. The Vanguard is a slow, hard to maneuver tank, if it's caught in a bad position, it's dead. The Prowler can always outdamage it's opponents and still has the speed advantage and medium maneuverability on it's side.

If I would rank the tanks on skill:
Prowler the easiest, by far.
Vanguard and Magrider tied depending on the skills best in the situation. Also it depends on how you approach the Magrider how difficult it is to learn. If you treat it as a strange infantry unit, lots of it's movement and capabilities is extremely easy to learn. In the meantime the Vanguard and Prowler require the player to keep track of their front facing and how long it would take to get back into cover from this position and angle.

And what about those Pounders eh? It's been known for years now that the Pounders achieve less against infantry than other MAX AI weapons. And Pounders aren't useless against infantry, not by a long shot.
You think that ZOE has a purpose. It doesn't. It's not just underpowered, it's a straight up downgrade for the VS MAX unless in extreme CQC, and even then it's doubtful if it's an actual advantage due to the increased damage they sustain while in ZOE. And no, you can't "dodge shots" with ZOE, at least not in such a capacity that it's useful.

On a side note: what about Grinders for the NC MAX? I remember the NC listing them as a useful alternative to Mattocks some time ago. Is that still the case? What's their forte?

Grinders + extended mags + slugs is responsible for my most brutal kill streaks(and I am talking fighting for objectives, not mindless farmfests). Even experienced players seem to assume they're safe at a distance and most outright panic when hit with slugs. I've also found aiming at the neck/upper chest area lands fairly consistent headshots.

Slugs reduce your DPM but it also easy to remain close to an engineer and I find the shield is more useful when not trying to get up in everyone's faces. A fairly heavy cert investment but it is so worth it.

One of the best Prowler drivers that I met does exactly this and is highly effective. Ambushes Mags with AP/Vulcan/Side-armor with a rushed flanked. Not your typical Prowler driver since I've never seen them use Anchor mode or Stealth.

Alright, but what is the Grinder's edge over a Mattock arm?

More Ammo.
Nearly every NC AI max weapon is identical beyond the Mattlock with its superior range.
Which is why most Non-NC only ever talk about the Mattlock.

"Non-NC", I've gone on my most brutal killstreaks of any MAX using Mattocks.

Hell, I've got on killstreaks far more brutal than I ever have with Mercys or Mutilators using Pounders, or alternatively using Quasars.

Someone spewed some crap about 1.5x DPS on a Prowler, which is all well and good if you're firing at maximum speed without missing - something that requires *surprise surprise* a ****LOAD of skill to do. But "Prowler the easiest, by far." ~because you've never used it~.

F+Reverse and single-shot tank shells requires zero skill because it is so ungodly simple to do. Aim, fire. Shield, reverse. Follow the zerg. Thus, the Vanguard being easy to use.

The Magrider requires skill only in so far as you need to be able to move it properly, you are never staying in one spot for too long and thus use it like a Harasser, it's the only tank with enough mobility to pull it off. Mobility, by the way, isn't just forward speed, it's your ability to move past obstacles.

Random drivel about Harassers and MBTs:
My Harasser driver and I would usually ignore Vanguards and Magriders, since Vanguards can shield and wombo-combo the vehicle with an AP and Halberd shot and instantly kill us. The Vulcan can't 1-mag a Vanguard from the back.
We only ever managed to kill them when the Gatekeeper was still useable, since we'd circle up to around 100 meters radius and chip it down.
Same with the Magrider, they can rotate rapidly and a single AP shot plus a Saron burst, or simply two to three Saron bursts would destroy the Harasser. The Vulcan is luckily still in existence and able to kill them when they are either moderately damaged already or have no top gunner.
However, using an Aphelion/Saron Harasser on my VS or my Enforcer/Mjolnir Harasser on my NC, the reason we can't kill Prowlers is in fact not the Prowler, but the fact that the Vulcan is objectively better at killing targets than those weapons. That being, the Prowler would be the easiest tank to kill except a lightning if the other factions had a Vulcan.

But I can see that you idiots already have your idea of how your one faction works and refuse to acknowledge any wisdom from a player who is clearly better than you, so I'll take my leave. Later.

Alrighty. Thanks.

I did literally say the Mattlock is the only NC AI max weapon mentioned.
I didn't say it was the worst shotgun. Dolt.

Ah yes, firing a 2-shot weapon over a single-round takes more skill.
With the combined AOA, and damage, (also reload) being better than the singular round...
If you miss, you have a short reload after a second shot for half of your full damage
- Miss with a Vanguard or Magrider, and you deal... not half but zero.

Shield, is 6 seconds long, has a long cooldown, and is soon to be released from PTS with massive hammer hits to it.
As well, the single shot has the longest reload, doesn't even deal the most damage in total nor has the largest AOA in total, and is on a slow tank.
You have one single shot before everything can unload on you harms-free for long enough to deal significant damage to the Vanguard.

Vanguard Shield lasts 6 seconds - Making the tank literally the most vulnerable it can ever be.
Any Harasser can duck in, force the shield, duck out, and be back to engage the shield-deprived tank.
Same with the Magrider.

The Tank designed to have the best armor (Vanguard) obviously shouldn't lose as easily in a face-tanking match.
Which sadly is what the shield was actually doing for it as the armor failed.

You literally have a thread saying to buff the flying tank in the Sky (Liberator).
Clearly you know the Liberator which can facetank any cluster of AV & AA weaponry, needs additional health.
Oh wait. That's ******* insanity.

You probably are a WTJ, that's why you're complaining about a great tank, saying that it sucks.
Magriders perform very well.