Let`s think a way we could give TR high damage weapons without ruining faction traits

Yep, magrider is a fun tank which is often misused, it's the only tank that can bloody boost away over a hill and laugh it! But with the new Amerish you see mags everywhere, due to it being a gravity / hoover tank it just goes where it pleases.

But yeah NC has overpop, not that I care, I just want the old TR weapons back before PU02 where the CQC carbines were unjustified nerfed too hard.

Also, shout out to Miller TR! Only Europeans taking a stand!

If they made the game this bland I'd quit.

I see enough generic FPS games floating about. Homogenization is not a good thing.

:'(

TR should strictly be about 125 & 143 damage tier weapons. Guns like the TMG-50 & SABR-13 should be reworked to fit this damage model and additional 125 damage LMGs, Carbines, and ARs would be added.

NC should strictly be about 167 & 200 damage tier weapons. Guns like the GD-7F, GR-22, Carnage AR, and Blitz should be reworked to fit this damage model.

VS should strictly be about 143 & 167 damage tier weapons. Guns like the Sirius should be reworked to fit this damage model. No drop would be removed as a superfluous 'advantage'.

Recoil, ADS movement speed, bullet velocity, magazine size, and reload speed should be normalized across weapon types & damage models so that theoretical DPS, DPM, and accuracy are close to identical. A 143 damage model weapon should have the same DPS/DPM/Accuracy as a 200 damage model weapon of the same type/role.

That way everything is close to balanced, but everything feels different. A TR player with an MSW-R would have an equal chance to win against a user of the Orion or Anchor.

If that is too much work, simply give the TR a 167 damage Carbine (T5 AMC?), and rework some of their less used LMGs, Carbines, & ARs so that they have an 896/125 damage tier that would be exclusive to them like the NC and their 200 damage model weapons.

The problem with this as has been discussed a lot is that high ROF weapons always have the advantage over slow, hard hitting weapons in close to mid range encounters (shotguns the notable exception) which is where most fighting occurs.

I have yet to find a statistics sheet that shows weapon performance at range. If I knew how to, I would pull it from the API but that is above my level of what I know how to do. I showed you the weapon statistics sheet so that you could see the traits of long range weapons appear more often in NC weapons than TR and (to a lesser extent) VS weapons.

The devs balance by statistics, so theory crafting is the next best thing to statistics. The two characteristics I stated are the most commonly found in NC weapons (other than vertical recoil bias). Most of the NC weapons are between the 167 and 200 damage tiers. Damage degradation for 167 weapons ends up putting it in the 143 tier and 200 gets put into the 167-184 tier (basically the same number of bullets to kill). Max damage usually starts at 10m for all weapons. NC weapons transfer to minimum damage about 10m to 15m later than most other weapons (the most notable exception is the GD-7F, which goes to min at 60m as opposed to 75m that seems to be the norm). Recoil is something that may take awhile but I have been told, several times, that most NC recoil is vertical biased. These seem to have more range than both the VS and TR weapon equivalents.

Performance data is not always something to base a weapon off of. In a general sense, KPU is great for telling how good a weapon is. But, once we start looking at specifics such as range that the kill was made from, we run into the problem that is base design. Most bases are CQC enviornments. This is why the NC has been having overall lower performance compared to other factions whilst the TR reign supreme on many of the server leaderboards. Level design is probably the main source of a great deal of problems in the game (spawn camping, vehicles not where they should be etc.).

TL;DR NC have traits that favor long range, level design favors TR and (to a lesser extent) VS, and I could not find the performance statistics you were asking for.

I would say the major problem is the lack of adv. laser sights on the high damage profile weapons aside from the Anchor. I don't think anyone will say that the Cyclone is a bad CQC weapon for example. If the NC had some good CQC 167 damage automatics similar to the Cyclone I don't think we'd need weapons like the GD-7F or GR-22.

2000 ROF weapons for the TR when

we don't need high damage but guns that hit what you aim for instead of this infernal left/right/left/right recoil.

You made a claim that NC weapons are superior at range, Yet you can not find any performance data that supports that claim. So basically you made it up.

Tell you what, why don't you just find performance data that shows how NC weapons perform against the other empires weapons at any and all ranges. Then we can look at that performance data and have a reasonable discussion, that is not based on Theory craft, opinion and speculation, but on actual hard data.

THEY ARE SUPERIOR AT RANGE. The entire bloody post was about NC weapon traits that allow it to perform at range. Performance data judges how the users are doing with the weapon. If a sniper rifle has a low KPU, then one of two things is happening
1) the rifle is not usable/too usable in the appropriate situation(s) aka. it sucks/its too good
2) the rifle is being overused/misused by its users causing it to look good/bad aka. the users are too good/suck

KPU is great for generalization and to starting topic discussion, but it should not be the main point for balancing for the reasons stated above.

Before and After PU02 (the most recent major balance patch)
Carbines, ARs, and LMGS
I will try and get some more recent data from the Oracle of Death when I get home. Again, go nuts.

EDIT: I derped doing quotes, should be fine now.

Yeah I'm not sure why it isn't with LMGs, I guess they (SOE) think that LMGs with 120+ round magazines or like 240 for extended ) is just too OP - they may very will be right.

Well if you consider the other factions they don't either.

Take Carbines, the GD-7F gets a lot of attention, yet what never gets any attention is that every other NC carbine has a lower rate of fire than every TR Carbine.

So the GD-7F exists to fill a niche where there is an advantage, but when you compare there rest there, there is no advantage to higher damage per shot Carbines (or to look at it the other way lower RoF Carbines).

As mentioned above LMGs are the exception not the rule.

A better weapon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> variety.

No, it doesn't, this is the problem.

Higher RoF weapons perform better (all things being equal) in PS2 for a variety of reason (just not as much as they used to when flinch so massively favoured RoF too).

I wouldn't say it was overpowered though, just that if I had a choice of two weapons both with 100 DPS (although generally the higher RoF weapons tend to also have slightly more DPS in PS2), but one with a 500 RoF and one with a 850 RoF, I'd take the 850 RoF one every time.

Although the scale isn't even, there less difference between a 750 and 850 RoF weapon than a 650 and 750 RoF weapon, and certainly RoF can be overcome (by more DPS, by better handling etc.) as the Jag shows so well.

The reason for that was the massive overdominance of High RoF weapons in certain situation (much lessened now since the Flinch change).

Those weapons maybe could be rebalanced to be lower RoF now and still work ok.

But that is not what this thread is talking about, it's asking for high damage per shot weapons.

And yes really shotguns should be different too.

I'm saying with the orginal Flinch mechanic it was ABSOLUTE NECESSARY to give NC and VS them.

With the new Flinch mechanic it is less so, but High RoF still tends to outperform (all things being equal) in close and mid-range (unless one-shot-kills can occur).

High damage per shot conversly adds flavour, but basically no advantage (outside of OSK senarios - which don't exist for LMGs, Carbines, AR, SMG in PS2).

Yet to hear a reason why? If 125/500 is too OP for a TR gun, they they can balance by reducing mag size on the Gauss Saw, Gauss Saw S, EM1 and EM6.

"Better" is subjective though. Which is why "Variety" wins out over "better for one"

Well in that case I demand a TR Carbine that does 212-152 damage per bullet. Because if you have a Carbine with 5.625% more RoF than any TR carbine, it's only fair we should get a Carbine with 5.625% more damage per shot than any NC carbine, riiiiighhhttt?

As I said I don't know, I'm not SOE.

I suspect there could be a few reasons:

1. being that LMGs become too powerful with much bigger magazines.

2. being that TR LMGs already have more RoF by quite a lot than say NC LMGs:

NC LMGs - 500 to 600 RPM (with one outlier at 650)
TR LMGs - 652 to 750 RPM (with one outlier at 577)



I'd guess it was probably both 1. & 2. to some degree.

It's not though, all things being equal higher RoF = better performance in PS2, less so after the flinch fix, but still so.

Indeed, but again I wonder why anyone would want a worse Carbine, just to have higher damage per shot.

The AC-X11 still isn't performing exceptionally well, even after PU2, you're still better off using any other NC Carbine.

Here is how you do it.

We remove any NC Weapon with a Damage lower 167-143 and a RoF higher then about 652rpm

Like wise on the TR we remove any weapon with a damage higher then 143-124 and a RoF lower then 725, and buff those that that have a lower RoF up a bit. if they are to have a longer range option like the T16, we increase it's RoF to 675 and buff it's horiz recoil from w/e it is to about how it is on the Gauss SAW, but keep its damage the same.

For the TMG50, I guess they can have that one weapon be a good accurate, deadly 167dmg gun...but compared to a NC Weapon, it cannot compare. NC Get 167@15m-143@85m while the TR get 167@10m-143@75m like it is now.

Meanwhile guns like the CARV-S get boosted to 725RpM.

TR Shotguns get nerfed down a bit compared to the NC SHotguns. More spread, less ammo in the mag, PA 3 rds vs 4. SA 8rds, no exmag vs the NC who get 10 rounds and a 12 or 14 rd exmag. More CoF Bloom per shot. TR and VS Get no Full Auto Shotties.

Give the TR guns higher RoF but they retain that poorish Horiz recoil. Give them more x2 optic options on weapons and better attachment options. Seems alot of TR Weapons lack variety in the attachment dept.

TR get more accurate burst weapons like the SABR and such for their long range options. High Rof, long range burst options. High RoF in CQC.

Also, TR LMG mag caps go from 75 and 100 to 120-150 default, exmag lets it go to 200. Thier SMGs get like 65 round exmags. Thier ARs get 50 round exmags and those stuck together mags for faster reloading(I have no idea what they are called)




Now on the NC Side of the house we turn a gun like the GD7F into nothing but memories, we buff the EM1 to 167@8m-143@65m 625RpM, nerf down its Horiz recoil a bit, lose it's exmag, lose its ALS but it retains slightly better Hipfire accuracy compared to other LMGs in the NC.

The Blitz gets reworked to be more NC, higher Dmg, less RoF.

NC loses double capacity exmags on alot of weapons. EM6? Its 200 round exmag goes from 200 down to 150.

I'd still take the AC-X11 over any of the TR carbines, recoil means anything past the 3rd shot won't hit anything but the ceiling, may as well take the carbine that can make those 3 shots count the most.