Guys, let's try to salvage this ... SOE probably will not waste much time on reworking things for this "balance" pass, seeing as all changes are just changes to existing values. For the weapon changes I would like to hear some opinions from the guys that actually use those weapons a lot or have experience with them. Enforcer ML85 Since I mainly play NC, I'll try to salvage the Enforcer in some meaningful way. The issue that SOE sees about it is it's to good AV damage, grated it has good dps, but in actual combat it's not that much better than a maxed out Halberd. It's main advantage over the Halberd is that it's already strong without any upgrades and it's more forgiving if your gunner isn't the best shot. I could go to great lengths and talk about a general mechanic change for the weapon, that reload upgrades have more impact on it, but SOE probably want's to keep this change as easy for them as possible so ... Possible solution: -Keep the current planed actions but give us a 2 rank cert upgrade line to get back to 10 rounds. Maybe don't nerf the ammo pool as much. The 0,25 longer reload will make no difference, because it already didn't gain much from reload upgrades in the first place. C85 Modified Please SOE, rethink the purpose of this gun ... it's meant to suppress Infantry, a shotgun will not do that, meaning it needs capacity and range ... And if it really has to stay a shotgun, make it a ML85 projectile style 3-4 pellet Sluground thrower with a very tight cone or a ML85 with HE rounds ... something with more range ... and suppression ... Vanguard Shield SOE, the reason people hate the shield is because its hard to counter. Once it's running the Vanguard will just eat most things you throw at it ... the shield time, even with 6 seconds is long enough for good crews to severely cripple most things in the game. Bad Tankers use it as a crutch and I will be honest, this needs to go, it hinders most of the NC guys to learn the actual usage of their Tank. For Tank on Tank action the Vanguard does not need to relay on the shield, with the only exception being a good AP-AP Prowler crew. Yea I said easy as possible solutions and than go back on it ... but really, the shield needs a mechanic change! Or you will never get it balanced! Possible solution: "Hard Shield" - Engulfs the Vanguard in a Hard Shield for 6 seconds, the Shield has a 2 second ramp up time. The Shield absorbs 250 damage(resistances applied) per second. Cooldown 45-30 seconds. So what this does, it's now more tactical because of the 2 second ramp up. It's no IWIN button, at least no longer as big, because it will leak damage. The way it exactly would work is that it's a series of mini shields holding for 1 second, chained together, each absorbing effective damage. So a big Tank round would leak through and break it til the next mini shield comes up. This of course is a rough idea and the numbers definitely could use tweaking ... General suggested Changes -Raise the Basilisk Ammo Pool from 300 to 400 -Raise the Basilisk Ammo Cert line from 60 to 75 per rank -add a charge bar to all Abilities -add a activation bar to the Prowlers Anchor Down -improve the crews ammo display(The Traffic light Green-Yellow-Dry isn't really cutting it out) -fix the Invert Reverse Steering option and restore the agility if that option is not enabled Wishful Thinking -Add a third slot to all MBTs; this slot is a second gun for the Secondary Gunner(This is to encourage gunner usage) -Move the M12 Kobalt to a new third slot; all cert progress moves over -add the Renegade as an option for that third slot(maybe, someone really wants to have a shotgun in that slot ...) -turn gearshifting into an actual mechanic(Well it already is, but with it's dedicated UI telling us the gear) -give MBTs purpose ... farming Infantry is no purpose, we want something meaningful to do ... This is just a small set of things ... opinions? Possible Flame?
The saron, very stupid change. It is not a good AI weapon at all. The halberd's high alpha is more intuitive on a strafing vehicle already, but when the halberds mechanics were changed we found solice in the fact that the saron was at least capable of suppressing the odd infantryman. As soon as any number of infantry appear, even 2 heavies, that magrider will be having problems. The viper. SOE shouldn't have messed with it in the first place because its awful AV capability is what made the weapon fair. Like the skyguard, the lightning is a specialist. Noone has a problem that the skyguard is the undeniable king of AA. That said, I'm not ignorant of the fact that there is a problem, but the fix is not very good. Increase reload time of the viper +25% Increase recoil while rapid-firing the viper in such a way that rapid-firing at distant targets becomes much more difficult Wait, and see how the above changes effect the viper. If it needs further balancing. nerf its outer splash. Why? Turning the weapon into a tool which rewards direct hits is good. This makes the viper an AI weapon which performs very differently then HE. The reload time and recoil now punish rapid-firing the viper harshly, and this turns into a panic button at close range. The viper has a longer period of vulnerability during this time which frees infantry to retaliate. Other observations Where is the balance pass on the other lightning weapons? Ap and heat need a +.25 second reload speed, and +25m/s velocity to compete with MBTs again. Lightning is a paper tiger, yet the TTK on these weapons is often lower then an MBT. AP lightnings can't compete at range since GU02 because of their velocity. back before GU02, lightnings has the same velocity as the prowler, and this was changed because of the magrider. Why didn't SOE boost the velocity of all tanks? Skyguard is underperforming in AV. Something changed in resistances during that super patch. The skyguard needs a +25% max damage boost, with a higher damage drop off to compensate. The desired effect would be seeing the skyguard do more damage at extremely close ranges, and the same damage elsewhere. This way a skyguard can run point blank of enemy armor and actually deal appreciable damage again, and no longer be completely helpless. The skyguard should be able to beat the Viper in a point blank fight. This is also in reaction to Improved racer/turbo on libs and improved fire suppression on ESFs. If the skyguard can deal significantly more up close damage these vehicles will think twice about making these bold attacks on a skyguard. Since at range damage is the same air will only notice if they actively look for trouble. Too many ESFs and libs are getting away with point blank encounters with skyguards because of their new toys. The HE cannon. Noone uses HE at all!!! Consider that something is wrong with the AI abilities of HE. Bring reload speed back down to 3 seconds! Give HE a new splash effect that hurts vehicles. Sure, it will efectively tickle them, but its fun and unique! We need more fun, and we need more unique, and we need less nerf!
I think the only thing that would save the C85 Modified is a proper choked mode. In PS1 some shotgun weapons had choked modes and they worked very well. That is you have 2 or 3 alternate choked modes with tigher CoFs, but significantly lower RoFs. The Vanguard is more complex, I'd be fine with a significant nerf to the shield, so long as it came hand in hand with a significant buff to the Vanguard stock chassis. If you saw at the data from when the Van shield was bugged (and not working), the Van performed horribly, the current shield is (IMO) basically propping it up (although the Van is not outperforming either MBT currently), so any change to it would need to address the Vans other issues in chassis performance (in all honest I think it would have to be pretty much Prowler speed and mobility, but with a bit more defence to its more firepower).
soe needs to go back on the idea of it being a heat weapon and make it a direct hit AI weapon. 6 shots compensates splash, penalty for rapid-firing to turn it into an oh crap button, and one-hit kills on non flak 2 infantry. The problem was that rapid firing all 6 shots works too welll at all ranges. The viper should be on the same AV level as the skyguard.
I am totally against everything tank wise in this patch except the Canister & Ranger changes, both of which are weapons that hardly anyone cared about or used and will still hardly care about or use them. None of it makes any sense to me as a tank driver who I would like to believe has a reasonable look on balance here. I don't understand how the Saron killing infantry is a problem. I mean, we are talking about a tank with a fixed main gun that has to rotate it's hull to engage, yet alone see a target. To me it makes sense that it's secondary weapon which is not hull bound should be able to provide infantry point defense on a mobile platform that is not able to see behind it at all. Also, if you look at the stats, on average per user it barely kills more infantry than the enforcer until you get into the very high BR users which to me means it requires a bit of skill or experience to use it effectively on infantry on any notable level. (Obviously nobody is using the Vulcan because it's a terrible weapon concept for a tank that apparently is built to lockdown at range and hardly anyone ever guns a secondary on a Prowler compared to other MBTs by a factor of 3.) From a Vanguard driver's perspective, the Magrider is total weaksauce. In a head on fight I can beat one down in a 1v1 without having to use the shield even if they get the first shot in. So of course the Magrider is going to try and get every advantage it can in vehicle combat, and they will use an AV secondary that doesn't look ugly or uncool on their tank (Halberd). In fact in a segment of time that was taken from the API, they use it 25-30% more (2000~) than the Vanguard drivers use the Enforcer (1,500) which makes up for almost exactly the 50% less Halberd users on the VS (roughly 500) then NC or TR (1000~ ea). This is the way I think it should be. These numbers are from a week or so segment. I DO NOT WANT TO SEE MORE MAGRIDERS WITH HALBERDS. It looks totally Ghetto. Also, why are you buffing the Kobalt? It's a great gun that slaughters infantry. What's that? Make it a more competitive loadout option? Is this a joke? Until the Kobalt can deal damage to other tanks by an amount to be taken seriously nobody is going to use this gun because it is not competitive for tank use compared to the other AV secondaries. And now you made it so that it further reduces the shine of the other AA options. The only way I could see your plan working with using just straight buffs to the gun to make people use it is if you gave it a built-in aimbot and 2000 damage bullets. That or if you nerf AV weapons to the point where it can't realistically kill infantry (BY THE WAY THIS NERF IS SARCASM). Like I said before these secondaries are like pulling a Burster Max suit that can't change it's loadout. It just doesn't make any sense. For these loadouts to become "competitive" you need to be able to use them without re-pulling the entire tank. Before it use to be no problem because it didn't cost an arm and a leg to pull a tank to swap the loadout (200-250~ resources could be regained in 10 minutes). These loadout options back then were much closer to being "competitive" with other loadout options without any buffs. And if you are talking competitive specifically vs the PPA please just go home. I have never seen a Kobalt Magrider and I never want to! The Vanguard shield nerf is also pointless because it's done wrong and doesn't address anyone's concern. The problem isn't that the shield last too long, it's an issue with completely negating any form of flanking on the Vanguard, which just so happens to be one of the few ways a Magrider can win vs other tanks of equal skill in a 1v1. It's basically a hard counter to them. I'm not going to talk about prowler drivers because they just don't use gunners on a number high enough for me to judge how well they perform vs me or the Vanguard. And what's with the prowler nerf? So what if they kill infantry more, you gave them 2 tank shells and a lockdown ability that lets them rapid fire bombard a position. I love fighting TR because they pull more 1/2 prowlers than anyone pulls anything else in this game since they treat it like a bigger lightning. It's awesome like a massive tank cert buffet of really bad players that you can just gobble up with Anti-Tank weaponry NOMONOM. I want them to pull moar tanks, not less. Also, you did nothing to buff the Magarider on top tier level. Only on lower and entry levels. I forgot I made that. Would use it if it was an implant.
You mean the thing that made the ScatMAX actually viable outside of bases? The thing that is still missing on the PS2 ScatMAX? It was a nifty idea, but than we still have the issue that it would be less good than a Kobalt. Even with it's cone mechanic the Kobalt just eats Infantry for breakfast, even on longer ranges. And since it says that it is a modified ML85 Enforcer ... there are a lot of options one can do with a 85mm HEAT dart thrower like that. Since the PPA is kinda the measuring tool that the other two AI weapons need to come on par with ... I would not see an issue with a faster firing mini HE gun that fires from a larger magazine. The Vanguard does not need to relay on the shield against Tanks in AP/AV Setups, the TTKs for those types of combat are very close to each other. The only thing that tips the balance is Anchor Down, not to nerf it, but that's the only thing that would have a clear advantage in a head to head battle, should the shield be nerfed. I'm constantly killing Prowlers and or Magriders, without the use of the shield and most of the time I have more than half my health left. Only if I come across a good crew or multiple enemies am I in any danger from needing to resort to the shield.
Another idea, since early cert progression is being looked at ... The biggest deciding factor in Tank on Tank battle outside of abilities is upgrade level of reload on the mainguns! That is a fact. TTKs shift for several seconds if you have a maxed AP maingun or not. So if SOE is willing to make low certed Tanks more viable with the ability changes, a similar thing would need to be extended to reload certs. I've been saying this for a long time, make the first rank of the cert give you 50% of what the maximum rank holds. So instead of starting with 2% faster reload on mainguns, we should start with 5% and go with 4 more steps to 10%! For Secondaries, which gain 3% per rank and have a maximum of 15%, this should start at 7,5% and go in 4 more steps to 15%. Also, what is SOE saying about any of those changes? I'm not a reddit or twitter guy ... so is there actually any interaction by the Vehicle guys from SOE between the community?
Another AI nerf to the saron, yea... give me back my old saron already SOE! And that logic that a gun that can melt trough armor needs 3 hits on a infantry guy to kill him... I am at a loss what SOE wants tanks to be... to me it looks like they want them to be certpinatas for infantry to crack open. I hunt for tanks since the first day PS2 went out of beta and imo the more tanks there are to kill the better. My enjoyment however is getting less and less for obvious nerfy reasons. The only time i shot at infantry is when they fire rockets at me or try to c4 me otherwise i hunt tanks and sunderers down. SOE should add shields to bases that block all fire going in and out so infantry can have their infantry fights and restore all tank guns back to what they used to be. But once infantry leaves said bases and their shields they better look for cover. Atm i am subscribed to PS2 for the sole reason that it provides me a bonus to my resource income for tanking (i rather like it up close... in a Magrider...). Needless to say i question that more and more. Imo tanks should get an armor buff or hp buff in the light of the recent liberator buff, after all tanks got a ton more fire raining down on them then liberators have and even less hills they can fly behind... What i read about the upcoming resource revamp (maint cost while using vehicles) i expect just another nerf to tank/vehicle gameplay. TL;DR - SOE should add shields to bases that block everything trying to pass trough it (Heat/HE/dalton/rocketpods/lock-ons/MANAs/ etc.) so infantry can have their fights without getting shelled and tanks can have their fights without constant lockons and whatnot hitting them. And since infantry got their fights inside the bases SOE should restore all tank guns back to what they use to be before all the splash and reload nerfs.
The viper was a better AI and tank killer then getting the heat cannon and using it for your lightening. Heck it was better for killing infantry then using the HE for my lightening. Long story short it wrecks. Simply too good for what it does but talking about slow to nerf? SOE has had things in the game for a long time without changing it even if it was broken. As for everything else? Really lackluster changes.
The Viper has been changed countless times ... nobody asked for the AV buff it received, most treated it as a AI gun prior to that and after the splash nerfs hit HE it was the best AI weapon available to Tankers. Ofcourse all the farmboys would be all over the thing ... once they actually figured out it's value ... Which is why I said I rather see it shifted into one direction. A HEAT style approach, so that it's role is similar to that of a Python, just in a different playstyle ... it doesn't work that way because of the underlying problem that it has multiple shots in a magazine. As stupid as this sounds, it's a similar issue as the first draft of the new Saron and Enforcer, only that SOE has been avoiding the Viper for ... quite a time ...
Well my comment is more "it's the free starter gun and it's better at both AV then heat rounds and better at AI then HE." Making it in the middle of heat and HE is.... eh.... but HE kinda sucks anyways at this point. Personally it's just too good of a farming machine, and it outperforms the heat when you finally get the kick of the rounds sorted.
I can understand the reason for the nerf, but I think it's to much, making it a primary AI weapon and maybe make that part a bit harder to use OR making it a primary AV weapon by turning it into something similar to the Enforcer are more sound ideas to me than nuking the entire thing into garbage-hood.
Fully captured everything I had to say in a well constructed post with an equal and realist look on all the factions problems with this patch.
Maybe? SOE is great at hitting stuff with a nerf bat so hard it sucks. Go strikers and ZOE! Then maybe buff something that doesn't need a buff like the equivalent of buffing the lib. I'm thinking.... more better NC shield?
It is just that SOE doesn't care about tanks. It is clear and it is their game and they decide how to break it. The problem is they don't find real problems balance issues in the game and when they "Fix" it all they do is nerf it to the ground, or nerf the ES variants to the ground. They say the saron is too good at AI... It is HARD to hit people with saron if they move. they say the enforcer is too good at AT... it is Supposed to be good at AV. Then they make the ES abilities more noob-friendly while the people who pay 1000's of certs for the last rank get nothing. SOE is making this game to it is easy to play for the people who won't stick to the game.and at the same time losing all the committed players as they cannot stand this BS anymore. No more nerfs, and make the game more strategical and exciting for recurring players. Cmon SOE you're seriously blowing it with these updates that seem to just make the game worse and worse.
The problem is whilst choked mode isn't perfect, it's the only way to make a "long range shotgun" that isn't ridculously OP'd at short range. The only other option I can see is abandoning the idea of long range shotguns, because they will always be either too strong or too weak, because they can't be remotely balance for different ranges without choked modes. I'm not saying Vans are useless without the shield, but statistically they seem to perfom worse. Even with the shield they are only just performing on-par/slightly sub-par in AV and Heat (and significantly below par AI-wise, both with HE and Heat).
You know, I hate the NC shotgun theme and would wish only Gauss and Magtech would be our "thing", not because I hate shotguns, but how they are depicted to work like in games. I know how real shotguns work and they are very effective, on all ranges, depending on the ammo loaded, there is a great flexibility because of this, one that will never make it into the game ... I kill many Tanks or other Vehicles ... and very often I let the crew live if they abandon their Vehicle, because engaging them for the sake of getting the kill is often more risky than actually killing the Vehicle they were in to begin with. So how are the Vehicle kill stats? I actually never looked at them, only normal kill stats and it's quite obvious that the Vanguard is no Infantry farming Tank, for many reasons ...
Certainly if they refuse to use choked modes they are doomed to be pants on vehicles, MAXs get away with it more because a lot of MAX AI is a short range, of course. Why they haven't gone for Gauss options instead I really don't know. But yes in real terms PS2 shotguns are more like cartoon versions. Overall (and indeed pretty much consistantly as MBT balance hasn't tended to change too much appart from with secondaries), the Van has been level or very slightly below the others. Certainly AI-wise it seems to struggle statisically (probably for fairly obvious reasons when compared to the Prowler or even the Mag), but even AP and Heat-wise it seems to do worse than the Prowler in AV and AI work (with both AP and Heat). Of course it's hard to judge absolutely as some MBTs seem to be pulled more than others (which can mess with the overall stats), but when you look at, for example, the performance of AP and Heat of Prowlers and Vans against Mags the Prowler seems to be ahead (where as van/Mag again Prowlers has the Mag and Van much more even). Although on balance it seem like the MBTs are fairly balanced currently, which is why I wouldn't want to see a Van guard shield nerf without them looking at buffing the stock chassis a bit.
