[Suggestion] Dalton - the new AA and the ultimate gunship.

planetside 2 prides itself on its realism

Don't get me wrong; I never think that realism should trump good gameplay mechanics. As such, Lib crews should also never use the "realism" argument. They want gunships to unrealistically compete against ESFs on a near equal level, always asking the question of, "why is my ground attack gunship so vulnerable to an air superiority fighter?," which pretty much answers itself. Then at the same turn they say that Dalton rounds should always OHK ESFs because wouldn't it be unrealistic if a 150 mm anti tank shell didn't OHK an ESF? I'm just a bit tired of your guys' hypocrisy.

Except the argument for dalton shells one hit killing esfs isn't, "realism", it's, "if they didn't, liberators would have nearly 0 ability to defend themselves against esfs".

In the end, there is nothing new to Dalton AA. The good Dalton gunners have hundreds of hours doing this. The best, well they do nothing else.

libs should'nt be able to one shot esfs, it should go like this:
Libs>Ground
Ground>ESFs
ESFs>Libs

its obvious that lib was never meant to be AA otherwise they'd have stuck the turret on the side to allow it to arch up,
its a A2G vehicle and it does that job beautifully.

Good, then maybe SOE can shift the ground-to-air balance and then maybe make Libs somewhat useful against ground targets again.

Libs haven't been useful in a meaningful A2G role for quite some time, due to a myriad of reasons like flak, lock ons, etc. They're only useful in areas where a rocketpod ESF would get the job done just as well, in small 1-12 or 12-24 battles. That's why these threads pop up, Libs have been so marginalized a lot of Lib crews have taken to just try to Dalton ESFs all day and that's where these delusions of the Lib being a "flying tank" come from. This is what happens when FOTM'ers who had too much fun with the Zepher/Dalton on release can't let go of their past farming memories.

No, not good. In high level air play liberators serve as the tank, and a "safe point" for friendly esfs when fighting other air groups. They've found a good spot in the air metagame and should not just be turned into dead weight in a2a fights just because a few ignorant scrubs think it's unrealistic that high level players can kill esfs with the liberator.

Yes, they should.

You don't have to get close enough to a Liberator to get 1 shot'd by a Dalton. So, if you get close to one, there's a chance that you could get Dalton'd and it will be 100% your own fault. You DO NOT have to engage a Liberator, you CHOOSE to engage a Liberator.


THE END

I know, and it's because of things like this that the air game will stay cordoned off from the ground game. Is this what you really want?

I don't see how all aircraft being able to play important roles in a2a fights means that aa needs to stay ridiculously overpowered.

hint: because it doesn't

It'd be up to SOE to make those changes, but from the current state of things it doesn't seem like MLG 420 Dalton crews have much interest in actually trying to affect anything on the ground aside from farming dead continents. The goal for the air game should always consider the question of how it can impact the ground game, i.e. how does it help or hinder territory capture. As long as Lib crews have this mentality (no matter of why it got to this point, such as overbearing flak/lock ons/everything trying to kill you), it's not gonna change.

Although I do understand where you're coming from. The Dalton is the only thing that has kept the Lib as a somewhat relevant vehicle. Otherwise it'd be consigned to a FOTM vehicle that nobody would have used after the few months of release farming and subsequent nerfs. Then again, I also assume that most dedicated Lib crews still out there are also guys who were hooked on release months of easy mode farming without any impunity. For the average player, there's probably not much sympathy at all due to those release months and entirely no empathy due to not having spent much time in the air.

The problem is the Lib has been so perverted in its original role. From the onset of PS2 the thing has never been balanced properly because they changed it from a bomber to a gunship. I don't know of anything other than a complete redesign mechanically that will balance it.

Libs worked in PS1 because they operated outside the range of flak and lock-ons and it had bombs that dropped straight down and weren't effected by range/render-distance. There's no reason that formula can't work in PS2, just probably buff the tail gun a bit.

umbrellapower,

To address a couple of things you mentioned. I didnt start liberating seriously until May/June and have been playing since open beta. I started Liberating because I enjoyed tanking but was getting tired of the ground game and was looking for something Teamwork oriented. If nothing else Liberating is all about teamwork (not accounting for outliers like pntball18) and I thoroughly enjoy it. Was it tough to get into, yes but I still think people can get into Liberating it just takes time and another person/persons willing to spend that time with you. I also routinely use the Shredder dependent on what gunner I am flying with, it can be effective but is more dependent on working as a Squad/Platoon then the Dalton.So its possible I am the sole exception but I do not believe I am not the only person who started flying the Liberator because they enjoyed scorching the earth before the nerfs.

In regards to impacting the ground game, for me thats my favorite part. I love being in a platoon or even a squad and having someone call in air support for me to destroy a high priority target or suppress an area. Its fun to be able to help my outfit mates out or have an effect on a battle.

This is just one persons opinion though. If it matters I play on Matherson and in game name is ForlornHop3.

Out of curiosity in your opinion what should a 150mm AP round (the size of a fire extinguisher) do when it hits an ESF @ 250m/sec?

i had a good little spree in a zephyr gun earlier today, it still obliterates groups of infantry if you can kill them before getting striker'd

You're calling Dalton AA as if you can hunt and chase ESFs with it. You can only hit them if they are stupid enough to follow you along a straight path and stay too close.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that most top tier Lib crews are all running the Dalton. The Zepher's power is in killing Maxes and infantry, and most of us don't really care about them, we're more concerned with ESF's, Libs, Galaxies, and Armor. In a group of 3-5 Libs, having 1 Zepher Lib is ok but when getting jumped by ESF's, the Dalton is much better.

We tend to leave the infantry killing to the armor and infantry guys on most occasions.

The Liberator is in a weird spot...it totally ruins tiny fights and pisses everyone on the ground off, and in big fights they just get obliterated.


Things that need to be fixed/added:

• Strikers need to be fixed and nerfed (TR pilots have no idea what I'm talking about here...)
• Liberators need about 35-50% more HP than it does now due to ESF nosegun changes
• Liberators need an effective tail gun
• Liberators need more weapon options for the Nose and Tail
• Liberators need a massive ammo nerf on the Zepher/Dalton to 1/2 of what the ammo capacity is now (Pilots with a real understanding of game balance should have ZERO issue with this. We all know the ammo capacity is absurd)

In a lone wolf scenario this is true, but in high level air play you can use your esfs to force the engagement (an enemy esf will have to stop running and fight), meaning you can bring your liberator in. Which there's nothing wrong with, but I just wanted to clarify that point.

I don't have a problem with Daltons OHK'ing ESFs right now, as experienced pilots will rarely die to it. Even a single ESF always holds the advantage against a Liberator. My problem with it is how it influences player behavior.

These threads always hold so much irony they'd sink an oil tanker. Nerf skill, buff stupidity seems to be at the heart of the matter. The ESF holds all the cards. It's faster, more maneuverable and it has A2A weapons far more effective than the situational Dalton and yet these advantages aren't enough. Apparently it's simply just not fair that Libs aren't free kills to any idiot that jumps in an ESF.

When the rivers of tears over dedicated AA units killing ESFs vanish to be replaced by liberator cannons, there must be a problem somewhere, but it's certainly not with the Liberator.