Cyrious made a video about Skilled Players

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by ican'taim, Jan 21, 2021.

  1. pnkdth

    In your view everyone is a cheater until proven otherwise. An accusation is enough.

    In fact, I think you're a cheater because you're trying to shift the attention to others. If RPG doesn't ban you then that proves they're protecting cheaters. My logic is perfect! I mean, you seem to have such vast knowledge on what it means to be a subtle cheater. You're just giving this advice so you can continue to cheat while players can feel better but never really get an advantage over you. You probably can turn off flash-bangs and conc grenades at will and even more! Everyone is a suspect. Everyone is a cheater! I knew it... sneaky tricksy...

    Seriously though, your advice applies to facing any player who is better than you + common sense. You just go one step beyond and add your own brand of paranoia into the mix. It is also getting quite annoying to having to having to iterate in every post that OF COURSE WE UNDERSTAND THERE ARE SOME CHEATERS OUT THERE! Do I need to make the text bigger? Add colours?
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  2. That_One_Kane_Guy

    That is exactly backwards. Barring the blatantly obvious hacks which are outside the scope of this discussion, becoming a better player is a necessary step towards the ability to identify a legitimate cheater. Without a working understanding of how to play, how the mechanics work and most importantly, what is possible within that scope all you are going to end up doing is jumping at shadows.

    For crying out loud this was in the bloody video.
    Not one of these things is evidence of cheating. A novice can and will die under these exact circumstances to perfectly legitimate players. Consistently. I kill new players in similar scenarios practically every night. To their credit most of the time I don't get rage tells which is a shame for my ego but a pretty good indicator that even new players do seem to know and expect this from vets.

    I find the majority of hackusations seem to come from 'veteran' players who find out they aren't as good as they thought they were.
    ...or a sufficiently skilled player. Seriously, these are tactics, not "IWIN" Buttons.
    These are not only both possible for a new player, they are also far more likely to be a legitimate issue for a new player than the Boogeyman you're proposing.

    Nonsense aside, these are legitimate tactics for fighting more skilled players and worth teaching new players regardless of the sentiment behind the reasoning. Broken clocks and all that...
    • Up x 2
  3. Scurge

    It's not only on PS it's on PC also we have to have to mass a small army to kill them daily.

    No they aren't gone.

    People protecting the hacker's/cheaters are making things worse. But I understand why since they grinded the weapons and perks in record times and don't want to get banned and play the game fairly like everyone else that wasn't ran off.

    Same mental thinking as people putting sunder's/tanks in Biolab fights, on top of very high mountains and many more places they never should be.
  4. JustGotSuspended

    you're one of these guys who doesn't know what an ANVIL is right?
  5. csvfr

    Also rather unfun and ungiving tactics in most circumstances that also makes the player liable to shaming in /yell ala "A max in a 1-12 fight, noob". If the opponent is human, the RNG recoil pattern of his weapon, bloom, reaction time, and imperfections in ADAD tracking, makes sure that even a low skilled player, if not able to kill the opponent, at least has a fair chance if selecting his weapon right. Due to the client-side mechanics the initiator of a bullet exchange even has a slight advantage something new players must learn to capitalize on in order to become better.

    However, when the opponent has no reaction or lag delays notwhitstanding a lack of sensors around, and keeps chaining headshots when this is improbable even with random guessing, these tactics become more eatable. And yes the probability of bullet placements with RNG recoil+bloom+movement can be quantified mathematically something players just get a feeling for after playing for a while. This might explain why most hackusations come from vets who don't use performance enhancing programs.
  6. LurkingHorror

    Ok, this is nice, so some common ground does exist after all.

    Now it's just how many are 'some'. Could 'some' equal 'widespread' ? What exactly is 'widespread cheating' ? Could this possibly depend on personal opinion, so that two players would require vastly different quantities to use this term ?

    Me, if I hear widespread, I at first think about something around 50%. Then, when I consider what 50% cheaters would mean, I quickly revise that number down to something more like at most around 25%.

    Then I think some more, and realize that at around 8%, every squad worth of players would have one cheater. Sounds like a bit too much still. But even at 2%, it's 1 cheater per platoon. Considering that there are always players who are pretty good at masking what they do, that sounds like a pretty reasonable upper bound to me.

    But how is two percent 'widespread' ? That's a small fraction. If two percent of the population hold ninetyplus percent of a countries wealth, noone would say that being filthy rich is a widespread thing. But that small fraction still results in a solid likelyhood of being killed in suspicious ways in every big fight you go to. So in a way, cheating can be perceiverd as a wide spread phenomenon anyways.

    Of cause even going with just percentages of online population is a gross oversimplification. Players don't distribute evenly, not over ingame locations and not over time, so perceptions can naturally differ depending on how a players gaming habits, playstyle and online times make his ingame presence intersect with those of cheaters. Big fights or small fights, primetime or off hours, weekends or weekdays, might all make a difference in what a player might see.

    It can even be argued that a 'subtle' cheater (another term that sorely lacks a real definition) will try to minimize his exposure to players that have a higher likelyhood of realizing what he does and catching him on video, so if you don't see any cheaters, it could be that they are just carefully avoiding you specifically, or take care not to do anything suspious in the kind of fights were players like you are around. Or an experienced player might even unconsciously avoid 100% death situations without giving a second thought to if they are caused by cheating or not, where less experienced players still try what they think should reasonably work.

    This is what makes general statements about the amount of cheating difficult. Unless watching the same screen, any two players can have vastly differnt ingame experiences, and could thus be subjected to different amounts of cheating. Different playstyles can make them more or less susceptible or resistance to the impact of cheating, as could selective behavior from the cheaters themselves. This then results in the funny fact that these players can come to vastly different conclusions about the amount of cheating going on, with both being correct, but only in regards to their own playsessions.

    Add to this different 'skill' in figuring out what is legit, just suspicious, or cheating, different understanding of simple terms like 'some', 'many', 'widespread' or 'subtle', and it's pretty obvious why these discussions never manage to come to anything even close to a agreeable conclusion.

    Let's end with some more common ground: I think everyone can also agree that 'most' hackusations are just blind rage and lack of understanding of game mechanics, so wrong. 'Some' players use them just to insult, or even to distract enemy key players by getting them into a conversation. That still doesn't make any statement about how many of them are correct, and if it's 'too many' or 'not enough to worry about', which adds an additional layer of personal preference and opinion on top of an already convoluted topic.
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  7. That_One_Kane_Guy

    Not sure what your point is here, you're describing First Person Shooters 101.

    Also you seriously just used peer pressure as an argument against using a perfectly legitimate force multiplier to even the playing field. Nice.
    Again, aside from potentially a desire for edible tactics I'm not sure what your point is here. What you consider to be 'probable' and what actually is so do not necessarily coincide.
  8. Foxassassin

    Great post. But I feel like most people are going to blow by it and continue this back and forth "They don't exist." "They DO exist" stuff....

    I think what a lot of people here are also forgetting, how easy the game is to manipulate outside of 'hacking' directly. Do I really need to bring up the internet drop exploits? Where cutting your connection, doing things, then reconnecting can net you a ton of free and easy kills, while looking innocent from a technical standpoint?
    I had an incident a few days ago where I started loosing packets pretty badly, but not enough to get disconected. I don't think I had ever 'played' that good before. The amount of power that this game gives people with terrible (intentionally or otherwise) internet connections is something to not be taken lightly. And I can't tell if this is cause or effect of seeing so many obvious foreigners on servers they're not closest to, regardless...

    Just a simple throttle or bandwith limiter, or a killswitch or even a macro for disabling internet can easily fall within the terms of 'cheating'. And just like subtle hacks, if you don't draw intense suspicion you can get away with it forever potentially, and is far less enforceable.
  9. JibbaJabba

    The mere fact that this whole thread has deteriorated into a discussion of cheating supports the point Cyrious was making.

    This was a video about GOOD PLAYERS.

    Now we are talking about cheating and nothing else.

    THIS is what's wrong. People can't wrap their heads around the gulf between their skill and the skill of others in this non-matchmaking game.
    • Up x 2
  10. JustGotSuspended

    yeah people with 0 understanding of how the game works start inventing their rules of how legit players or cheaters should behave. It's extremely funny how the little proof we have completely contradicts their ridiculous claims, yet they come up with unproven controversies to explain the unexplainable.

    "Everyone is innocent until proven guilty" - that is, unless they are gaming. Or I guess someone's "hunch" is enough to prove that someone is cheating, because trust me, the probability of that shot being legit is too low so therefore that is proof the guy could've only cheated. But subtly, so only I notice but not other players nor the devs. And god forbid you don't have a hunch that the players they hackusate aren't cheaters, otherwise you're a cheater apologetic or a cheater yourself!!!

    It's really weird though. I get little to no ragetells on my low BR alt accounts, which have little little directive score and much better stats than my mains. On my mains with barely have pretty sad stats, I get multiple ragetells by the hour - but almost always when I'm playing vanu. Same player, same server, fighting the exact same people, just on different characters. But on some characters these people hackusate me, send me threats, etc. On others, everything is fine, despite those characters being seemingly more sketchy, at least in my eyes.

    idk I feel some people just can't accept that people are better then them. If they can't find at least one thing that places them above that player: be it skill, directive score, battle rank - then they immediately categorize that person as a cheater.

    There's this guy on Connery who runs and outfit and leads platoons. It's such a meme but when you realize he's being serious, it becomes scary. He's running an outfit with hundreds of players (many of them new) and spreading nonesense like 'there's aimbots everywhere' or 'it's impossible to get that much directive score so that's proof [player(who happens to be a dev)] is a hacker'.

    Here's some videos so you get an idea but he's got a lot more and he's like this in game. It's also interesting to note he's hackusated me and my friends quite a few times. Yet he welcomes us with open arms into his platoons and his outfit when we're on his side.

    • Up x 1
  11. pnkdth

    This is just sad to see + some of those comments in those videos makes me cringe. These players are beyond help.

    I don't know about that. Anyone who believes in guilty until proven otherwise + that an accusation is good enough evidence to have someone banned + a whole host of paranoid delusions is a lost cause. Me conceding that there are cheaters in an online game (a concession everyone has done in this thread) does not extend to me taking his version of a subtle cheater seriously. Mostly because under that definition every last one of us is a suspect and the norm is to assume everyone cheats.

    I mean, the one thing we know for certain is that all these cheat experts are responsible for flooding the in-game report feature to the point where the sheer wolume of false accusations made it useless. So it is only logical to be dismissive of the vast majority of hackusations being thrown out there since statistically they're much more likely they're bogus than not. Plus, having been the target of hackusation crusaders myself these people love nothing more than to hold a grudge. Evidence is not as important as the drama and grief they cause. Small people tend to be spiteful little creatures and go after those they identify as their enemy (even if that person doesn't even know they exist).
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  12. csvfr

    You do realize that those videos are a joke right? Presumption of innocence is a legal principle and I find it funny how you consider yourself a court nothwitstanding being clueless about criminal proceedings. IRL an accusation is enough to warrant an investigation, not a full sentence, which in this context would imply BattleEye system scans and/or server admins shaddowing the player. Only after this potentially handing out a ban. It is then important that whoever carries out the investigation are independent, esp. financially, from the investigated, which ain't the case under the free2play monetization model where certain players are more valuable than others.
  13. Alkasirn

    Oh certainly. I forget where I heard it, maybe I even dreamed it, but in a shooter with a more traditional networking model one of the developers said something like 76% of the reports they got were false. But because PS2 is goofy I bet it'd even be as high as 90%. Hell, let's say 95% cause that doesn't change my point at all.

    Evidently, believing 5% of all reports are correctly identifying a player who is deliberately gaining an unfair advantage over other players means I "accuse everyone who kills me of cheating" and my tendency to find a player suspicious enough to report once every other month is "flooding the in-game report feature." Somehow, believing 5% of reports are correct is controversial!

    But it has to be controversial, because even 50 in 1000 reports being true can mean either of these two extremes, or somewhere in between: there are 50 individual cheaters (a lot!) who were all reported once and then DBG took care of them immediately, or a small number of cheaters (like 5) who were reported an average of 10 times each because DBG just lets them continue playing regardless. Even 50 in 1000 makes the narrative that "there's been like 6 hackers ever but also DBG gets them within 36 hours" fall apart real fast.

    Like you said, there's a lot of combinations of beliefs that can be discussed here. But there seem to be two sides in this thread: "cheating exists to some extent [with individual disagreement over how much that cheating impacts the game]" vs "cheating doesn't exist at all and I'll make a lengthy post based on the presupposition that cheating doesn't exist at all, then simply say it does when called out on it, but then immediately go back to arguing like cheating doesn't exist at all, and if you disagree you're bad at the game so there!"

    Nobody is denying good players exist, or claiming that good players are a problem for that matter.
    • Up x 1
  14. JustGotSuspended

    hell, we could even say 99.999999999%
  15. JibbaJabba

    Um, yes they kinda are.

    Watch, go post some stats from Xoniq or Zyros or some crap. Watch everyone froth. "nobody can be that good they must be a subtle cheater" will be the consensus of some.


    Who Needs Kovaaks GIF by Dudisfludis | Gfycat
    W2 GIF | Gfycat

    And Cyrious didn't make a whole video defending good players for no reason.
    • Up x 2
  16. pnkdth

    Not to mention the contempt for anyone who tries at anything. They're called "tryhards" or "elitfits" or something equally scornful for anyone who want to work together to achieve anything other than a useless bio lab farm. If you enjoy working together as an outfit/squad/platoon and your aim is to capture territory + collaborate to win alerts you are engaging the wrong kind of fun apparently.
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  17. JibbaJabba

    Sounds like something a sweaty person would say.
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  18. That_One_Kane_Guy

    "What a fool I am," he said. "Here I am wearing myself out to get a bunch of sour grapes that are not worth gaping for."
    And off he walked very, very scornfully.
  19. Somentine

    You could play against some of these dudes on LAN after being pat down and tested for drugs, with hardware and software provided by themselves, and they would still throw suspicion on you.
    • Up x 1