Cyrious made a video about Skilled Players

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by ican'taim, Jan 21, 2021.

  1. iller

    I honestly can't believe there's now someone who's a bigger Cheater Apologist than Jibba ever was. I guess I owe you an apology for all the years we went back and forth on the topic. I should have been more grateful that I wasn't 100% arguing with a concrete wall at the time.

    But forget that irrelevant sufferer of U.S.I ... the REAL issue is @ time stamp 7:47
    ...where there's a guy literally Roleplaying a No-Clip Banshee ESF without even being in a vehicle

    Did you hear it? I know you ALL heard it. It's the sound of a Shill trying to protect his community from Logic.
    ...which he replied to me elsewhere about saying:
    He actually knows better, (and so do you guys here!) he knows that removing all NUANCE from any future discussions about it like he did in this video to such a ridiculous degree... is a form of intellectual dishonesty and "Rhetorical Expedience" which he of course excuses with the old Canard about why Direct Democracy is ostensibly impossible when 50% of the population is under 100 IQ. This is a rationale that only out of touch Elites use. ...and some dictators too, but that's drifting into Sophistry which I'd like to see everyone to steer away from.

    The issue of Subtle Cheating doesn't HAVE to remain a known-Unknown. It never did! In plenty of other games, especially ones that allow for Server-side Vector logging and recording, you can know EXACTLY how many subtle cheaters are hanging around never getting banned just by reviewing the replays or getting someone (like me... who actually made hacks and was a part time expert on them) to review them for you. And the best part is, it isn't dependent on your personal Delay frames to the other guy's Round Trip packet McGuffin'ing that the game's netcode is so infamous for. But no body else has ever called for some kind of basic common sense effort for the Developers to integrate that tech into the Quality of Life to do lists.



    So we're just gonna keep going round and round on this thing till the game shuts down never knowing the real ratio, because not-Knowing, benefits the Developers. A literal "KNOW NOTHING Party" kissing their feet every time this comes up. It means that as long as it can't be Quantified with a mountain of EVIDENCE like it should be ... that they can continue to make as little effort as humanly possible to address any of it. That seems like a really stupid thing to defend in my opinion. And the only explanation I can think of... is that these Apologists just want to see themselves as the Elite "victims" in this. That's their LARP'ing identity they're so desperate to adopt, And they're telling everyone else to "GIT GUD" to convince themselves that they're in that tiny Chad-Caste of actual talented bros who constantly get accused even when they're innocent. Sorry, but BELL CURVES DONT WORK LIKE THAT!
    • Up x 4
  2. JustGotSuspended

    yeah I also pointed this out multiple times.

    Even if subtle cheaters did exist and no one noticed they were always cheating ever so slightly, what even would be their effect on the game?

    It's conclusions that can easily be deducted through common sense.
  3. JustGotSuspended

    This was the result of throughout, conclusive manual investigations, not an anti-cheat banning software.
  4. JustGotSuspended

    cheating is addressed, and as said you have been given the numbers of bans, and individual IPs caught "hacking" in any way.

    Numbers of a dev that seem aligned with the situation in game VS a random guy who doesn't understand how these mechanics work spitting conspiracy theories without laying a single piece of foundation as to how he came to conclude such absurdities.


    really wonder which one's gonna be harder to believe. I'll try using the CRAAP method to better analyze this.

    In the meantime try to figure out how these "subtle cheaters" are cheating.

  5. Demigan

    A subtle cheat is any cheat designed not to be as in-your-face as a teleport-hack or similar. The point is that its hard to spot, that doesnt mean the impact is small.

    A great example is whatshisname the sniper. He fired his shots too early and got a headshot. He fired his shots too late he got a headshot. He fired his shots on-point he got a headshot. He and his apologists claimed many things: the magic of drag-shots, there were "missing frames" because I watched in 30FPS which makes no sense when you fire visibly too early or too late and "he was just that good dont question it".
    For other players this cheat wouldnt have been subtle, but his skill and playstyle could mask it. He used drag-shots which made it harder to see when a shot was off-target and his movements were good enough to make it believeable until closer inspection.

    While his cheat might have been subtle, the impact was massive. Looking at just a few of his video's only 1/3rd of his shots were actual headshots, a whopping 2/3rd of his kills should never have connected! 2/3 Third of his kills should have resulted in his death instead. Thats 2/3rd of his victims who got unfair losses.
    The biggest proof of this was a shot where his target never crossed the crosshair or the bullets path, passing about 1m away from his target yet still yielding a headshot kill. At first all his apologists ignored it, then when I repeatedly brought it to their attention the same excuses as before rained down. If you had put it in a cheater montage no one would have said it wasnt a cheat, a literal miss becoming a headshot. But people have to protect heroes!
    When a few months later the file-editing exploits were discovered and temporarily plugged and you couldnt edit the head hitbox size anymore he mysyeriously dissappeared for a long time.

    Ofcourse another thing about subtle cheating is that you dont have to use one subtle cheat, but can stack them. This same sniper had the talent of getting 3 impacts with 1 bullet, always showing up in the same pattern: one on the left, one on the head, one on the right. Also a magic feature of the dragshot that was impossible to replicate even if I used ridiculous speeds and automatic weapons.

    Subtle cheating does not have to have subtle impact on the game!
    The fact that you guys are literally trying to apologise for the subtle cheaters like this is a show of how much you want to accept cheating!
    • Up x 4
  6. JustGotSuspended your prime example of a subtle cheater is someone making montages of him landing insane shots that are "obviously" cheats and you easily identified.

    Interesting. And what a bizarre argument you come up with to assert he was cheating. Do you have values for how a legit shot was meant to behave in this scenario? Considering the netcode, fps, lag, luck....I find it curious you can hackusate the dude just because he "fired to early" and got a headshot in his montage. Perhaps I'm not as woke as you

    Ridiculous and quite absurd statement, and that's disregarding the silly '2/3rds of his shots were unfair'.

    The definition of subtle is something minor/unimpactful that can barely by identified because of how little it actually affects anything. To then say your imaginary cheaters have a massive impact on the game means they weren't subtle in the first place!

    And again, even if their cheats were impossible for other players to detect, they would still be caught because they are manipulating the system in any way.

    There it is. Proof you have no idea what's going on. Lemme introduce you to something called EXTRAPOLATION (mixed with doodoo netcode.

    It's the same reason why you can run through a bunch of dudes with your harasser and never score a kill. And then you drive casually and suddenly murder a friendly 10 m away. It's not a hack, it's a feature.

    lul wut

    No one is trying to apologize for cheating. I quite literally stated I've bullied and reported the few I've come across. I do try to prevent the spread of silliness coming from unknowledgeable people, to prevent embarrassing snowball effects that have happened before. I'm thinking of when the community made such a fuss that for a year the devs were forced to take legal action, track down and ban cheaters, skilled players were persecuted and forced to stream/upload videos of them on youtube/twitch (none of which ever satisfied the community), all for not even 20 individual cheaters to be banned. Foolishness such as this wastes resources, spreads a negative image of the game, is toxic to the community and doesn't even accomplish anything in the end.

    The cheaters got banned as they would've eventually, they were so small in number that their bans never made a difference, which didn't satisfy the guys asking for these ban waves because they wanted to hear that anyone but them was a cheater.

    And then you admit yourself the devs are on top of things and effectively countering cheaters, without even being asked. What more do you need??!?

    Honestly I feel its best if one of you guys made a new account, and showed everyone how you are able to "subtly cheat" without getting banned. No need to bring in morals or whatever silliness as to why you can't share some gameplay of yourselves subtly cheating regularly without getting caught. If anything, it's your duty for you woke intellectuals to remove the wool that's drawn over the devs and ignorant player's eyes. Show everyone that subtle hackers are a thing, and they can wreak havoc in game with no one noticing. That at least would help to take you somewhat seriously.

    If you can't prove it's possible, and it's actually a problem, quit trying to make simpler players paranoid, and wasting everyone's time.
  7. JustGotSuspended

    Little intermission so we can enjoy a video where someone got pissed at Transgressor for literally just walking and blamed hacks for the fact he wasn't even able to operate a shotgun in CQC caught Transgressor hacking and uploaded it on youtube so we could all witness a dev and iconic community memeber hacking.
  8. Alkasirn

    I remember that! I may have the directions mixed up, but wasn't it like: a target was 0.5m to the right of the reticle, then the next frame the target was 1.0m to the right of the reticle, and he somehow miraculously got the kill? Then a frightening number of people were like "but but but if you look in between the frames [when the dude would have been 0.75m to the right of the reticle] then the shot totally would've landed and it's not suspicious at all!" It's almost as if some players just repeat whatever rhetoric they hear without ever understanding what they're saying.

    Man. All this talk about -a certain kind of player- has got me wanting to find another one of those players with that superhuman "situational awareness". You know, those players that know the exact location of everyone through walls at all times who also have a 0ms reaction time if you shoot them in the back 100% of the time because they're just so pro and good at the game, but if you shoot at them from behind and miss with an unsilenced weapon or run right up behind them and scream "ENEMY SPOTTED" in their ear, they will never turn around and look at you because they're totally, 100% just extremely good and god-like at the game and that's why you're completely invisible to them unless they can visually see the dorito over your head OR you shoot them?
    • Up x 1
  9. JustGotSuspended

    so.....those who rely on the minimap?
    • Up x 1
  10. csvfr

    So what? In open platoons you meet various other forms of toxic people on the voice chat. Ever heard sudden screeches, farting sounds, insults, hate speech, denigration, etc.? After a while you just turn off voice or ignore whatever is non-constructive. After all you log in to play not to argue with randoms. If you don't speak up towards any unduly speech, why speak up against statements that have some truth in them? Say if it is a small outfit with a handful of cheaters, it is easy to call them all for hackers. If you can't vouch for the hackusated you might as well shut up even in a platoon of reasonable people.
  11. JustGotSuspended

    Goes both ways. If you can't 100% (or at least to an obvious extent) prove they're hackers, then just shut up and don't comment about them publicly.

    "Innocent until proven guilty" right? That's how they do it in America. If you don't have proof or anything to substantiate your accusation, give them the benefit of the doubt and forget about it. DBG will deal with them anyways if they are cheaters. If DBG doesn't deal with them, then they weren't cheating.
    • Up x 1
  12. JibbaJabba

    Not going down this rabbit hole. Let's stick to the discussions of cheating.
    Gonna stop you right there. You're asserting something here. Start proving.
    Yep. This is basically what the whole video and discussion here are about. It's easy to keep perpetuating this myth and it's damaging to the game.
    Ah, but I can. My previous example. Guy is describing a hacker using a hitbox mod and I can tell from the description alone that he doesn't understand the game and is misinterpreting what he is seeing.

    So I speak up.... If I don't then the unchecked continues to be unchecked and adds to the problem.
    The problem being: The game is earning a reputation of being full of hackers when it is not. It's all *accusations* of hackers with no proof.

    ....And I get shouted down. Just like here in the forums sometimes.

    It's easy to Lie to someone.
    It's tough to convince them they've been lied to.

    That's what we have here.
    • Up x 2
  13. pnkdth

    ...And there we have it. An outright admission of not caring about evidence and a complete lack of empathy towards the players who you try to slander and potentially ruin. You're literally saying, "come on, man, let the angry mob sort this out." Honestly, you're coming off as more of more a spiteful person who does this for kicks.
    • Up x 2
  14. csvfr

    There *is* proof against known longterm cheaters as already pointed out. But as per the rules of this forum (censor any named hackusation) proof must be obtained from outside sources like youtube and reddit. And you should be grateful that someone generousily donated their time to expose these hackers for no charge. Really it is DBG's job but they seem to let many pass notwithstanding far better tools available to detect cheaters.

    Footage of cheaters still cheating to this day is one type of evidence, or proof if you would like. Hackusations in platoons or discords form another type of evidence akin to a witness statement. By inspecting the statement it can easily be dismissed if based on a lack of understanding of game mechanics. But shooting the messenger is not the way to go as then genuine hackusations would not come forth. It can also be important to discuss potential hackers in a closed group, not to hackusate but for suggestions on how to deal with it. If one member was killed in a sketchy manner, asking if it happened to others could guide a decision to use /report.
    • Up x 1
  15. JibbaJabba

    If there is proof, send it to DBG.
    Otherwise it's just unproven accusations and those harm the game.

    Nobody is saying don't discuss it. The high skill players have the same discussions (way differently though). Just don't go repeating crap that you don't know for certain. Same common sense that nobody follows anywhere on the internet. (Next stop...hackers in a Pizzeria!)

    And most of what I hear from the pubbies is outright hearsay which is NOT evidence. Nobody saw ****, they just heard it from someone else.

    And when they do "see" it directly it's after wallowing in this echo chamber of hearsay. These pubbies deeply lack the understanding of skill and mechanics in the game so start seeing hacking in everything. If you you explain it, they aren't hearing it.

    Now we have "outfit X is full of hackers" and everyone nods in agreement even though nobody has ever put forth proof.

    To me it boils down to this...

    Rampant cheating doesn't exist in this game.
    The reputation of rampant cheating does.

    If hackusations are harmless, why the disparity?
    • Up x 3
  16. JustGotSuspended

    WHERE?!?!??!?!??!?!?!??!?! Cite that proof again, cuz I think we all missed it.

    If they're "long-term cheaters", they likely aren't cheaters at all. Otherwise they would've been banned as soon as the proof came up.
    • Up x 1
  17. Liewec123

    i probably worded it poorly in my first post, but i'm not against outfits, or those outfits doing outfit ops etc,
    its unlikely that a bunch of random friends will all be top players.

    i'm just against people forming outfits of only the best players,
    because that will just drive away any new people who they stomp (and ultimately kill the game.)

    and unfortunately the game seems to be encouraging more of those kind of outfits
    and less of the "bunch of mates" type outfits.
    things like Outfit Wars naturally spark the creation of elitist outfits.
  18. JibbaJabba

    I spose I might be in one of those. We are best buds though. The haters probably bring us closer in a way other outfits don't experience.

    We are definitely *not* all top players. (Some are, I'm not)

    But we point hold, and I need the guys holding their firing lane to know their crap... when/how to rotate, extreme beacon discipline, how to brace, pair peek, have complimentary loadouts, etc etc etc... Strong as our weakest link. Just admitting anyone to the outfit would cause all of what we do to collapse. So we admit hard working (not elite) players.

    I usually get frustrated to nearly quitting by playing in pubby platoons that can't seem to accomplish anything as a team. And leaders driving them into a meat grinder.

    I'll say this in our defense though: What we do is way less damaging to the game than what the zerg fits do. We may have say a platoon sized skill ball during prime time friday ops. We break that up into individual squads and send them all to fight 70/30 battles. We lose A LOT.

    At no time are we trying to use our skilball to just take a dump on other players. We seek a challenge that requires odds in their favor. But zergfits? O. M. G. You think THEY will redeploy if they find themselves firing at a spawn shield. ha!

    Zergfits and their leaders are the worst. They will avoid each other because that would be a fair fight and instead just crap all over the unorganized masses with obscene overpop. The worst new player experiences are at the hands of zergfits, not skilled players.

    I'm sorry you're against what I do. If you're *leading* in one of these zergfits, then I'm against what you do.
    • Up x 2
  19. pnkdth

    You can get quite a lot of work done with just the basics, i.e. make sure you have a decent team composition and ensure everyone plays they role without going too strict on it. You can rotate roles, do fun events, free for alls where people still try and work together but with a free form composition, to mix up the experience. You don't need to be overly pedantic about it either and there are a lot more average/decent players than there are good/super players. Grind 'em down and have fun doing it!

    You don't have to go full tryhard to make big waves, is what I'm saying.

    Outfit Wars might reinforce the competitive aspect but that also make sure those players end up those kind of outfits. I have no real solution on how to approach the casual vs competitive in an open world (you can be competitive and casual, just separating them for convenience). They're always going to clash but at least with these types of events the most competitive play takes place in an arena.
    • Up x 1
  20. JustGotSuspended


    They don't want a bad reputation and therefore only admit people they trust, or that seem trustworthy into their outfit.

    And that doesn't mean that 95% of the time they won't let you in their squad if you ask.