Cyrious made a video about Skilled Players

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by ican'taim, Jan 21, 2021.

  1. csvfr

    I doubt you'd consider the fact that there may be cheaters as you've said:
    When anyone claims someone else cheats it is hearsay, and when the accused say so themselves it is a joke. Video evidence are unproven accusations, and stats suspicious by definition are indicative of skill. You'd make a good member of the flat earth society btw. They too, demand "direct, conclusive and repetable evidence" that the earth is a globe.
    • Up x 2
  2. JibbaJabba

    Bro. You're the one making claims. Burden of proof is on you.

    Show some.
    • Up x 1
  3. csvfr

    I present what I consider evidence of cheating but it is all dismissed. So what would you personally consider sufficient evidence of cheating?
  4. JibbaJabba

    Let's first be clear: Widespread cheating. As Cyrious is describing in the op.

    Nobody in this entire thread is making any claims that there is no cheating. We've frequently discussed cheaters and just as frequently discussed how they got banned.

    That said, I don't recall any evidence of yours that I've viewed. You may have been more engaged with someone else in the thread. I'm happy to look at it.
    • Up x 1
  5. JibbaJabba

    And I'll just add... someday.. maybe... the right question will get asked.

    It's not "are they cheating?"... it's "how are they so good that it seems like cheating?"
    • Up x 1
  6. csvfr

    Yeah I was mixing you and "JustGotSuspended" earlier because of the similar forum avatar and the same posting times. One seems to deny the presence of cheaters, the other dismisses any proof, easy to mix up.

    Also as I've been clear on I'm not arguing there is widespread cheating. IMO there is just a miniscule portion of the playerbase that consistently cheat. What I'm against is giving this small amount of players a free pass by discouraging reports of genuinely suspect behaviour, and only report or hackusate the blatant or flying cheaters.

    This means that a handful of "skilled players" potentially being subtle cheaters with some form of aimbot and ESP, forming an outfit that practically say "We hack and cheat", should be treated as what they claim they are in particular when their stats are in the top 1%.
  7. JustGotSuspended

    Key sentence: what YOU consider to be evidence.

    Your feelings and an age old video of a dude cheating for 2 minutes is not conclusive evidence to declare people in particular outfits are hacking, DBG isn't taking care of them and that cheating is a widespread issue.

    Again, I would suggest you create a new account and start "sublty cheating" for a week or two. Or you could stream/record videos of your sessions, and we can analyze one by one how many times you've died to a cheater.
  8. JustGotSuspended

    I can pull up numerous posts where I admit there's cheaters. No one is denying that. What you're saying is just silly.
  9. csvfr

    Sure it is. If I feel someone is cheating, I declare "I believe <insert playername here> is cheating". As simple as that, an opinion I'm free to hold and share with others. No further evidence is really required. For all intents and purposes this is the same as declaring "<insert playername here> is cheating" just dropping the "I think" formality. Then it is quite vague; is there really any proof that the accused is cheating or is it just the accusers thoughts? That's why I ask what you (yes you, not me) consider sufficient evidence of cheating to the extent that you too (not just me) would think the player is cheating.

    Some examples of my thresholds:
    • The 1 in 10.000 sniper shot on page 1. Reason being the objectively low probability of a legit player landing the shot.
    • Top percentile stats in conjunction with membership in an outfit that glorifies cheaters. Don't really see a reason to believe a player is legit if this is not desired by that player, and it concurs with displayed performance.
    • Video evidence that shows multiple instances of cheating
    • Video evidence that shows a single instance of cheating, supported by killboard metrics that demonstrate repeated occurences, as exemplified by Towie on page 3.
    I also agree somewhat, that if a bunch of players hackusate other outfits, they should either:
    • Say clearly that is hearsay / heard from others
    • Or state if it is a subjective first-hand experience
    • Video tape it for all to see and send it to DBG
    • Up x 2
  10. Alkasirn

    Well, that's what ya get when the people trying to argue at you are doing so in bad faith. Best case scenario, they're trying to make a real comfy environment for cheaters.

    This nonsense of "oh there are cheaters, but nobody who's ever mentioned dying to a cheater was actually killed by a cheater except that one time, so it's not a big deal" results in: new players being discouraged from trying to learn the game, existing players being hesitant to discuss cheating and improving each others ability to detect cheating by discussing which things are or are not suspicious and what they can do about it, existing players accepting exploits that negatively affect the balance of the game (ex: infantry just casually jumping up walls which defeats the purpose of a LA) because it's "not as bad" as all the other stuff people do, the developers deciding not to prioritize cracking down on cheats because the vocal parts of the community seem more concerned with other things such as harassers existing, and the cheaters loving every moment cause they know it's extremely unlikely they'll face any consequences.

    I get what you're saying in the other posts, too.
    If a legitimate player made the outfit "hackers r us", everyone would look at it and go "funy joek lol; clearly those players are legit!"
    If a hacker made the outfit "hackers r us", everyone would look at it and go "funy joek lol; clearly those players are legit!"

    It got me thinking, it's pretty weird. I'm all about seeing how well the top 0.1% of people can perform in games. Speedruns, esports, you name it (especially speedruns - oh man.) I can't think of any legit player I've ever paid attention to jokingly say they were hacking. In fact, they usually bust out a stream with a webcam showing their mouse/keyboard/controller/what-have-you to prove it. It's awfully weird how many players in specifically PS2 go "I'm a hacker! LOL jk" and aren't known for their ability to play any game that's not PS2, as if all that skill up and disappears when they change games...
    • Up x 3
  11. pnkdth

    It would result in player who first try and figure and learn the game rather assume cheats. Excuses, e.g. that player is cheating, is what stunts growth. We see little to no reluctance in reporting cheaters as proven by a massively overused in-game report function which swamped the devs with false reports. In the case of subtle cheats, they seem so unlikely and/rare it barely affects the game. I wonder if these players report themselves if they get a lucky shot... However, There ARE people cheating but this is PS2, welcome to a game with large numbers, where the improbable becomes probable, the random is a common occurrence, and where there is someone out to get you around every corner. In short, pointing to singular oddball events isn't exactly going to wow me.

    Then there's software/hardware/connection issues which can produce some weird things. It is not terrible uncommon to end up in a situation where you go, "how the f*** did I get a headshot there?" or vice versa.

    It doesn't matter how these outfits act or what they're called. If they'd be silent and just did their thing you'd call them out for being silent and trying to hide. They are subtle cheaters, the lot of them, after all. Of course! That's why they're not defending themselves. What? Now they're defending themselves, hah, we got them now! Press the advantage! Charge! Seriously though, it really doesn't matter what you say/do. I've been on the receiving end of this in other games and even if you're legit you'll never change their minds.

    I gotta say though... Using their outfit name as proof is kind of silly. I've definitely played along and made fun of people who are especially obnoxious in-game with their accusations. It is really hard to take seriously after awhile. It is just another form of raging, unfortunately, players like this also are making is much easier for actual cheaters to get away with things. Imagine if the devs could spend less time chasing shadows and actually work even harder than they already are at making it difficult for and catch cheaters? I mean, even average players get hackusations and raging msgs from players and for the most mundane stuff.

    I wholly agree that cheating should not be slept on though because that's how it gets out of hand. I'm just not sure it is actually being slept on nor should the devs relax on game balance.

    Meanwhile, I encourage everyone to start sending out "nice one!" or "n1" for short to great plays and when you get dunked on. Don't hate, appreciate. :D
    • Up x 3
  12. Alkasirn

    I can't imagine there's a single player who figured out everything about PS2 by themselves just by sitting in a bubble. At some point, someone who knows what's up needs to explain things!

    It's so rare to see that, though. I remember one thread years ago (yes, we have to go back years) where someone knew about the basics of infil cloak and thought it was suspicious someone kept finding them while they were crouched and idle. Somehow most replies respected the player, and explained more advanced things like how different textures make a cloak's distortion easier/harder to see, spotting enemies causing your character to announce themselves out loud to the enemy, etc. Chanting "cheaters don't exist git gud" (and sometimes linking a 7 year old youtube video where the youtuber admits they don't know if what they're saying applies to PS2 and didn't care to find out within the first 30 seconds) for everything then acting like the conversation is over is only helpful in extremely limited situations and is more dismissive than anything - and yet that's the go-to response for certain posters here...

    See, I firmly believe even the newest, least effective players can make a difference in a battle due to a sort of domino effect. I've seen players with <0.2 KDR change the entire flow of a fight - even if it was because of something as simple as them running blindly into a room with 10 enemies but then their 10 teammates decided to follow (after standing around outside for ages) and win the push. So can a subtle cheater who only gets 1-2 extra kills per fight due to their cheats give their team a significant advantage? Yes. Especially when that's happening in every fight they go to; "the improbable becomes probable"

    Indeed! Using the outfit name as proof is silly! Or is it only silly when you use it as proof they're cheating, but it's totally okay to use it as proof that they're not? It's like what LurkingHorror said; the default is we don't know if anyone is or is not cheating (especially so with PS2...) There's exactly as much reason to believe they're cheating because of the name as there is to believe they're not cheating because of the name. Now, if an individual started to look like a duck, walk like a duck, and say "hey guys I'm a duck lol jk" it really makes you wonder if they might actually be a duck.
    • Up x 2
  13. JibbaJabba

    Hunt them down for sure. It's been my experience that DBG will ban folks if you give them video proof. I've done this myself and seen others do it. Most times haven been one of those obvious warp-to-target or similar BS hackers.

    I've also been wrong before. I submitted a video and they just would. not. ban. I found out much later (came to know the person and showed them) he had an open support ticket with them prior to my report about networking issues. Had to eat crow. (I'll PM you the submission)

    High stats or some one off sketchy behavior will definitely get my attention but not immediately arouse suspicion. All said, I go with innocent until proven. I've seen a lot of really good players that I watched become good over time get hackusated to no end, or put up some scary looking stats on an alt. They are good people and deal with that as best they can.

    The stuff that bothers me is the ingame discussion where "outfit X" is a bunch of hackers... or worse... planetside is full of hackers. New players can't tell the difference between a lowly 2kd heavy and a hacker. If they get told it's a hacker then that becomes the reality of planetside.

    I think that's the crux of what cyrious video says and really what drives my to post in these threads.
    • Up x 2
  14. ican'taim

    "everyone who kills me is a hacker" -a bunch of people in this thread.
    • Up x 1
  15. JustGotSuspended

    stop it you hacker apologizer

    you're prolly cheating yourself aren't you?

    Have you killed me before?
    • Up x 1
  16. JustGotSuspended

    Innocent until proven guilty. Yes, it's ridiculous to judge based on names. No one said that because they are called "HAX" or whatever they must not be hacking.

    However an outfit of hackers is extremely improbable. Multiple hackers is just too uncommon of a thing.
  17. Scurge

  18. JibbaJabba

    Yes dude, the PS4 version has this an some max related exploit that folks have been using. Both the video and the reddit post are 6 days old and the accounts are either last touched 6 days ago or gone. The entire outfit they were in has been reduced to a single member.

    Cyrious also covers **** like this in his video. Egregious hackers get reported and kicked. Those guys also tend to be UNskilled **** players. Shoe probably fits you too.
    • Up x 2
  19. pnkdth

    Claims to be able spot cheats miles away.
    Posts a video of a dude sharing a bug (it is in the hecking title, man).

    Also, JibbaJabba's post.

    That's not enough, they should have hunted them down IRL and paraded their corpses around on social media to set an example! That is the only way for us to know they won't create a new account. That said, their ghost could still haunt the game and subtly cheat that way so, hmmm, maybe need to use salt on the servers or something, then again there's already quite a lot of salt around so maybe we'll be alright.
  20. csvfr

    This is a moot point. In my opinion learning to deal with cheaters is a necessary step towards becoming a better player. By denying that there are subtle cheaters a novice might encounter one and:
    • Repeatedly die to the same player in 1 on 1s
    • Obtain first strike advantage with infil/LA but still die
    • Try flashbangs / concussion grenades
    • ADAD or Jumpjets to throw of the aim of the opponent
    All to no avail versus the cheater. While all these tactics are sound and effective against legit players, the novice who refuses to acknowledge the cheating may come to the conclusion that such advanced tools and techniques are just gimmicks. He may become disenfranchised, believing his aim is innately sub-par or that his rig is simply not good enough.

    Rather, when the player truly knows that "<insert playername here> is a cheater", and realizes that he cannot win using reciprocal bullet exchanges, it is possible to:
    • Tag team the cheater: one player takes a few shots and retreats as the other comes forth for the kill
    • Jump in a MAX suit, works great against insta-bolters
    • Lay down sensor darts to avoid being flanked by a wallhacker
    • Redeploy to a more fair fight if all else fails