C4

If it were up to me, C4 would be changed to the following.

Only usable by engineers.
Make it a placed explosive(not throwable) taking 1-2 seconds to place.
You could then place it anywhere and use it to set a trap or blow up player bases.

If I were the developer I would be completely deaf to any amount of screaming from those no skill C4 fairies.
I would just let them scream, and if they can't adapt then they would most likely leave, which I would then welcome.
If they want easy mode then they can go play BF or COD, this is a team based game not a one man against the masses game.

Oh the irony.

Most the people who are commenting on here are actually quite experienced players and if you look them up in stats you'd probably find most of them don't even really play light assault nor have really touched the C4 fairy builds. I personally just don't really like how strong tanks are in this game, it shouldn't take 2 bricks of C4 + some more explosives just to take one out and people always argue but they need to be stronger because they take longer to get to the fight. Well what if in this instance you spawned a tank from your base that you were defending then you pushed out to mid way and you pushed out to the next base in a logical manner to support your sunderer out to the next base, well this can't always happen but in that instance its a free force multiplier. If you compared the 1 on 1 infantry to tank battle which often happens, more so than you think, the C4 fairy trying to land his explosives on the tank would have a hard time and it was more so in the tanks favour unless it was a very silly tank who was sitting in the same spot easy moding infantry or such.

I think this hurts the medic the most because its the class that is always going to carry C4, but now it can't reliably blow up maxes that step within 5m of him. That and if somebody else can't kill the tank, now I have to play another class with AV capabilities, because what was already difficult to achieve as infantry just became harder. Most infantry will just start using med kits again but then that even limits the need for a medic to heal even more so and now hes only really there for revives, which is not the worst cause i was too lazy to heal people anyway but yeah.

This misses the events in which tossing and detonating c4 instantly *IS* the tactical play. The reality is C4 cost a respectable amount of nanites so people weren't throwing it around like candy to begin with. They couldn't because they have a finite pool of nanites that replenish too slowly to just toss it around like crazy. If you really think it is an issue though, we could just increase the cost per c4 charge further. But increasing the time to detonation was an error.

I'm getting ohk by shotguns and knives, but there is no mention of those getting nerfed. Nor do I really want them to.. It is a mistake to go down that path of trying to remove everything we don't like from the game simply because it makes it harder for us to dominate in the game. And that is the real, unspoken reason a lot of you are in favor of these efforts.

Everyone has a pool of 750 nanites to play with, this comes down to 10 c4 bricks, you regenerate 50 nanites every miniute.
let's say you have a 10 vs 10 fight. Everyone in that fight can throw 10 c4 bricks in one minute, before their nanites run out. 200 c4 in one minute. After 2 minutes (because you can only throw 2 at a time so assuming 10 is unreasonable) they can all throw one more. 220 C4. after 3, they can throw 3 more if you're counting from the 2 minutes prior. 240.

No matter how you split that up, 100 c4 from 10 people sounds absurd but that's how the math comes out to.

SURE not everyone has C4, but that doesn't mean that the one guy that HAS bought it can throw out 10 bricks of it without counting the nanites he's regenerating. 10 bricks is 5 MBTs, 10 maxes, 10 groups of infantry, 3 sunderers (5 if you rocklet the rest of it's HP pool down).

So what would happen if we increased the cost? To what? 150? So instead of 10 we get 5. That 10vs10 drops from 100 per side to 50, that's still a ****ton of explosives. Any more and you'd simply make people pull harassers instead because they are more cost effective.

Now I do not mind tactical plays, I do not mind the expertly done flank to kill 3 medics before dying, I do not mind the EMP before a breakin, I do however mind that you're willing to call C4 a tactical play when it's basically toss and win. There is no cordination, planning, there isn't even aim involved, there is toss and win or toss and receive minor losses because you can just toss 9 more bricks.

Also, if you're getting 1 shot by shotguns and knives:
1. They already nerfed the crap out of shotguns. Where as they didn't do nearly as well as literally any other ******* primary. They nerfed them because they felt bad to be killed by. So nerfing C4 because of the same reason is perfectly fair if we're already pulling that crap.
2. If you are having trouble pressing the sprint button away from the power knifer to make him an easy target to everyone else or by all means use a shotgun that you're getting 1 shot by so much then please, continue to make your claim seem so much more ludicrous than it already is.

This is where I stopped reading. This is a totally absurd argument and negates whatever else you had to say. Only a small fraction of people opt to have C4 at any given time and they're rarely ever in a position to immediately refill at a terminal.

Thats a shame because I talked about that later on in my post.

Why do you think it's ok to treat as if C4 cannot be pulled by anyone when anyone can buy it?
That's like saying we should balance vehicles as being single pulls and that there is only one maximum in the hex at any given time.

You not reading the rest of my post that completely delegitimizes your claim to want to have a discussion about this. If you're not willing to read more than three sentences than I have some bad news for you, the forum has a lot more sentences.

The bottom line is this. You can toss C4 two meters. It has a blast radius of 2.5 meters. You can walk or run 2.5 meters in literally one second. If someone gets close enough to kill you with C4, it is completely your fault. It's a shame kill, just like knifing. It means the victim has such poor situational awareness and such poor sense and reaction time that you can lay an explosive at their feet and blow them up. In order for this to happen you either have to be placing yourself in a position where you can't see an enemy approach, like hiding just inside a doorway, or you have to be scoped off into the distance, never checking your surroundings. Some console peasant may have an excuse, with their inferior D-pads and analog sticks, but someone using a mouse can look in a full 360 in a fraction of a second. Defending a room? Don't stand at the door. Stand at the opposite side, or in a doorway on another wall. That way the room you're guarding is your killing field, not the enemy's. You see what I'm doing? I'm explaining how to play an FPS. It comes down to the fact that you don't know how to play and your play style doesn't evolve. You don't learn and adapt. You cry OP unfair instead of standing in a place where you can shoot but not have someone drop a brick at your feet. Oh wait, I can hear the cries of "but dert light asulrt!". Yep. Light assault. If I'm not dropping C4 straight down, I'm dropping down with a Deimos to 1 shot you, or knife you, or I'm floating in circles lighting you up with my carbine. Light assault trades durability for dynamic approaches, better take jet packs out.

You pull huge numbers out of your butt, talking about 100 bricks of C4 from 10 people in a minute. It's never happened. Only defenders are likely to have an equipment terminal away from the spawn room and even then, its just ONE terminal SOMEWHERE in the base and it can be blown up. I've repeatedly stated I get killed by C4 as infantry 1-2 times a week on average. I've explained the whole deal about situational awareness, strategy, and simply thinking but it doesn't matter.

Less than 100 nanites beating 450 in a blink


I cant even believe they hold this bs for so long... just remove c4 or nerf it to what its worth. So these one click satisfaction skilless players stop abusing it.

Your premise is missing the fact that the player with the c4 is not going to be on the target directly from the spawn point. Meaning, they will have to run from the spawn point to the target, drop and detonate the c4, (provided they are still alive) run back to a spawn point to refill their c4 charges, run back to the target, to repeat again.

So your math needs to include that. At which point it paints a very different picture than you're claiming. It also throws out the very distinct possibility that they may not arrive at the place they need to drop the c4 before they are shot. Nor does it account for miss-throws that either miss the intended target or destroy the person throwing the c4.

There are a lot of moving pieces your math doesn't cover yet should to be considered.

Let me give an example. Say you're on Hossin and at a platform base, out numbered to the point that the enemy is standing on the steps leading up to your spawn room in a pack with maxes and engineer anti personnel guns deployed just waiting for someone to pop out of. Fish in a barrel. Now say you sneak out of the back of the spawn room while this group of enemies is blowing away your team from the front, you then run over to where thy are located, jumpjet behind them, deploy the c4 and clear the roadblock. That is very tactical with much planning and aim. And I've done this with c4, yet it wouldn't have happened otherwise.

If you miss they know where you came from and what you're up to so the next go around is even more difficult... so it isn't as if one can just toss 9 more bricks.

I've also used it to glue to doorways and waited for enemy maxes that are about to run through and detonated it. The half second detonation now can mean the difference between a kill or the room getting shredded by the scattermax.

Also flanking to the enemy sunderer when everyone else is ham fisting the fight directly from the front of the base is another rather tactical approach to c4. It isn't just a bunch of people lobbing it willynilly at infantry instead of aiming their guns at them (though I'm sure that happens too) but you know that is an expensive way to use it (which again your math would need more elements to cover).

There is a lot more going on than your presupposing from my usage of c4 or the usage of the term 'tactical'..

I already claimed it was unreasonable that said one person could toss all 10 c4 at once, he won't do it in a mass killing spree, the point is everyone else at that base can have it. Say we have the same 10 people from before, unless one of them is an infil odds are they will carry C4 because you already have medics. Those 10 people can still carry 20 C4, or 20 "tactical" plays in one life. Sure not all of them are going to be in the right spot, but you can see that if you're a max, if any one of these people gets close to you, with pre-nerf C4, you are going to have a bad time.

However if you want to stick to your claim that it is completely unreasonable that those 10 people can toss out 100 C4 in a minute, then it's completely unreasonable to assume the nanite costs actually mean anything. If they are the average player, they will often forgo the tank or aircraft pulls, the nade spam and anything in between. At the most medics will throw rez nades and heavies will throw concs and lights flash and so on. That really only removes 1 potential C4 from their pool in which they can toss 9 C4 which comes out to 90 that they toss in a minute, but since we're forgoing that line of reasoning, they can simply continue on like this for hours at a time and never truly be out of resources because they do not need to throw C4 at everything, they shoot infantry and you can bullet down maxes.

Also flanking a sunderer to one man kill it feels just as bad as the players attacking and getting nuked by C4 around the corner in the first place. You can't easily defend against it unless you play puppyguard at the bus but that means less pop assaulting the base and that's where we get overpop, because that is more tactically sound than going in with even numbers.

It's why I don't understand why people hate AoE and hesh tanks when AP tanks simply kill the fight faster than they do. C4 is so irritating in this regard, because infantry are able to operate just as effectively as an AP tank when it comes to killing the sunderer. Personally I think that's too much power to give one infantry unit without time constrictions, it's why battlebuses run blockade, not because of the HP increase but because it completely ****-blocked C4 so everyone and their mother didn't insta-gib them.

This is a moronic argument as well. By this reasoning all the FREE rocket launchers, rifles, base turrets, and vehicle mounted guns should hardly do any damage to my 450 nanite aircraft or ground vehicle.

OF course I want to stick to my claim that your claim is completely unreasonable that those 10 people can toss out 100 C4 in a minute. Because it is purely theoretical.

And it is also completely reasonable to assume the nanite cost in fact does mean something. If the nanite cost doesn't mean anything for C4 then it doesn't mean anything for anything else that costs nanites. It is just another tool in the warchest for the planetman solider. As I mentioned the time sink between picking up the c4 to running it to the target is considerable in a majority of situations. Unless the enemy has parked their bus next to your spawn point, you're out for a walk. And that time is important to consider to the value of c4 why it isn't and wasn't that big of an issue.

Do you know of anyone who is blowing through 10 or even 9 charges of C4 in game within a minute? You seem to be arguing on theoretical situations that never to rarely happen in reality. It isn't as if there are war parties of C4 wielding ninjas in game. It just doesn't happen.

The average player isn't even using C4 (which costs significant certs in addition to the nanite cost). So your claim doesn't really make any sense to me. And of the players that are making heavy use of C4 only a handful are really skilled at it. The majority of players getting nuked by it are completely lacking in situational awareness. They aren't paying attention and didn't set out a spitfire or motion spotter and thus there is no helping those players. If they aren't going to protect themselves then they deserve to be nuked.

And I know this first hand. I've used A LOT of c4 as well as done A LOT of tanking. I don't get upset when I'm bombed because in every single case I deserved it. I parked my tank too close to a hill or a building.. sat still for too long.. didn't put out spotters.. and I got exploded. In around 1k hours of play I can't recall a single time I've been killed by a c4 bomber while in a tank where I saw them before they came within c4 range. I pluck them out of the sky or run away. It isn't an issue.

If you're running over c4 in the road that's your problem too for not making use of the proper implant to spot those. Some care has to be given to the type of play you're playing and thus the type of play others will be playing against you.

Yet that is precisely what SHOULD happen with a competent squad. People SHOULD be defending their sunderers.

In all cases where I haven't been able to destroy the enemy's sunderer, it is because they had someone(s) sticking behind to guard it. That's what I'd expect too.. it is solid gameplay on their part. I applaud it.

Having one or two people guarding a sunderer isn't going to matter away from a large scale battle and that is the only situation in which the sunderer is really ever seriously in danger. If you're at the least not using cloak and spitfires you're doing it wrong.

Python AP is so watered down these days that it makes more sense to bring in HESH. That way you clear the guards of the sunderers more easier (if they aren't smart enough to either get in the sunderer or to run away from the immediate area and shoot at the tank). But even then you should have had people guarding the spawn point anyways.. which in my rich experiences of sundy busting in a lightning is somewhat uncommon. People should never expect to drop their sunderers and abandon it, expecting it to take care of itself. Unless it is in a high traffic area (with many people respawning from it near constantly) that's not how it works.

I don't think C4 or AP or HESH or any of these parts of the game give too much power to a single infantry unit. Sunderers with proper flak protection are near invincible as is. I don't have the figures atm but I know it is over 4 at once to cause the bus to explode. Unless you have coordinated players that sundy is going to be standing for a long time. One c4 LA isn't going to cut it.. the engie that should be guarding that bus will have it repaired before the LA comes back with more C4. I've seen it time and time again.. which means the sustained fire of a tank is more useful anyways.

They dont kill with 1 hit, excuseme hypocritical moron...

Careful, there's a difference between calling an argument moronic and calling someone a moron, at least in the eyes of the mods.

Great counter argument as well, except you've apparently never seen all those montages of ESF's getting 1 shotted out of the sky.

It was a decent change.

Surely it was a majestic proof of skill to use a anti-everything remote controlled grenade without marker and often detonating before even rendering, right?

Now devs must look at the Flanker Armor, because it's a waste of certs.

And to the guy who said everyone can buy it so it's a thing well... probably only a dozen players had two bricks. I think 50,000 certs is what every planetman needs to be happy to be content and well with his loadouts and on briggs only 1,500 people server wide have this much (many of these are inactives or people with multiple toons, one for each faction). Cert upgrades generally do upgrade you to a point and if the certs are there well then hope an evenly certed character pulled the sunderer because if its a small fight and you can't justify having two men stand bus then you can spend the same amount of certs of having 2x c4 bricks on 3 characters on last level of sunderer vehical stealth to have an invisible sunderer.

They will no sooner change flanker armor as they will change nanoweave 5, nor will they refund your certs into c4 bricks, as such I gave some very useful advise on a forum a while back telling people to not get the second brick because of the inevitable nerf. If people cared to listen back then ya know, they should of also been similarly thinking of things like flanker armor being less useful if they were lucky enough to read of my words of wisdom....

Not that C4 is completely unusable, it's just vastly more expensive than a med kit and probably not even a popular sidegrade option.

Just to make it clear, i know noone who doesnt have 2 Bricks on LA. It costs next to nothing and is important.

Whether players are skilled or not does not change the fact that C4 in its current state is just an easy mode anti-everything mass killing grenade and are used as such for that very reason.
LA in particular has it even easier than other classes because of their jump pack allowing them to just fly over and drop the C4 and detonate before people have a chance to react.
Trying to look out for C4 faeries while at the same time trying to dodge fire from other players around you is difficult at best making it that much easier for the LA to get those C4 kills.

As for the medic not being able to reliably kill a MAX without C4, to my knowledge the only class that has an effective anti-max weapon in the Engineer with its Archer, and that weapon has already been nerfed into the ground making it nearly useless against its intended targets which is a direct result of people crying over it killing them too easily in vehicles and MAX'es.

The solution though is simple.
Change the C4 as I mentioned before, then give all other weapons a small buff against MAX'es so they can reliably kill MAX'es, but sill not be able to go head to head with a MAX and survive
The Archer should also get a buff to make it an effective MAX killing weapon, but not an instant kill and include a small buff against vehicles

I think the only real problem with C4 was the ambusher jump jets. That made C4 pretty useful even in AI situations. As a VS I can live with the longer timer vs Maxes cause against instagibbing NC Maxes it just doesn't matter much how long the timer is: They spot you in C4 throw range, they know how to aim...you are dead.
Against vehicles, especially sunderers it sucks a bit tho. Given that you usually need more than 2 bricks and already quite some time to kill normal sunderers(let's not even talk about those with a shield. They are basicly unkillable by a single player) it's not helping to increase that long time even more.