Buff default TR and VS MAX weapons.

No TR or VS MAX instagibs infantry, a Scatt can kill a soldier with a single click of each mouse button, yes the scatt only has 12-14 shots total, but each shot has 6 bullets, so your 14 shots is 84 bullets/pellets all fired in 1.5 seconds.

You can have your shotguns, I couldn't really care less, this thread isn't about the NC MAX, yet for some reason, out of habit perhaps, we have NC defending it here.

There is very little diference between the Heavy Cycler and the Mercy, both have the same reload time and damage, there is a difference of 25 rounds per minute, the cone of fire between the two is a 0.5 difference @minimum, the Cycler has a slightly larger mag.
With these differences, I cannot see how one can be awful and the other lethal.

Could be it seems that way because most cyclers aren't paired since they're just the default, while Mercies are usually dualed by people who focus on MAX and/or aren't F2P.

Not to mention the skill of the person driving the MAX, I've had some really good nights and some really bad.

This Video clearly show whats a VS maxs is capable of and whats a scatter maxs is capable of Both instagib infantry at the same speed but the VS exactly like the cycler INSTAGIB any infantry in QCQ combat in 0.5 sec , but here the problem the Scatter cant kill pass 2 to 3 metres whiout using all 14 shot to kill a single infantry While a VS max or TR one will almost instagib those at short medium range with ease and many infantry in a row whiout having to reload once

I don't think this obnoxious text size is helping your arguments, whatever they are as I'm certainly not reading them.

Agreed. I wish they would replace the chainguns on the TR Max with the T7. Hell, I can't even stand the sound of our chainguns on the MAX. The T7 minigun sounds so much more satisfying.

pew pew blue orbs of awesomeness pew pew

can't hit **** if I'm not inside a building in my tr max, but then again I have 2x onslaught and they are the most inaccurate cycler variants I think? Close up it's awesome, though.

and about that nc max: I think it's perfectly fine against infantry.. sure it's frustrating to die to one because you have 0 reaction time but it is a shotgun after all. Against other maxes, though, it's way too powerful - but this goes for all other maxes too. ai max vs ai max combat needs fixing..

The other problem that I don't think this thread has adequately addressed is the distances the MAX suits in general are effective at. NC MAXs, of course, excel at close range--biolab fights and tower battles, for example. TR and VS MAXs are decent at mid-range combat, as the video Stew360 shows reasonably well. However, consider the effective counters to MAX suits in the current state of the game, and where MAX suits are most useful. As someone who primarily plays HA, I can testify to the fact that MAX suits in the open are easy to pick off with rocket launcher fire. At long ranges, HAs have an easy time dealing with MAX suits, and are generally a better option because of their added mobility and AV capability. AI MAXs in the open--that is, in longer-range engagements--are also highly vulnerable to passing tanks and aircraft; being spotted is almost certainly a death sentence. In CQB, where the majority of engagements take place (in my experience), MAXs become a powerhouse. Their weapons, which are generally inferior to other classes' at range, come into their own, as does their higher durability. It becomes very difficult to coordinate rocket launcher fire or C4 attacks to take MAX suits down. This is why NC MAX suits are considered overpowered--they are overwhelmingly superior to the other MAX suits in close quarters. NC MAXs are virtually impossible to take down; unlike with TR or VS MAXs, two HA's rushing with rocket launchers are killed literally instantly. It has gotten to the point that I frequently see MAX suits operate in tower skirmishes without engineer support; the killing time of Scat/Hacksaw maxes in almost any indoor situation, combined with charge, means they almost never take any damage before they exterminate any resistance.

As anecdotal as my experience is, I think we can all agree that NC MAX suits generally enjoy much higher pull rates, k/d ratios and tactical usefulness, and the reason for this is, along with their clear superiority in MAX-MAX battles, that they are simply superior at doing what MAXs are built to do--decimate large groups of infantry indoors without fear of much retaliation. Being able to insta-kill 5 or 6 troops in a room without too much accuracy required is infinitely better than increased effectiveness at a ranges MAXs are simply outclassed at.

It's not quite that cut and dry. A shotgun is a weapon that counts on mobility and a modicum of stealth to be most effective. The lower mobility and larger profile of a MAX inhibits a shotgun more than it does an LMG. Some allowance has to be made for the fact that it's a large, hulking, loud MAX carrying those shotguns and not a Light Assault.

But you're right, NC MAXs are carrying shotguns that fire at full speed and TR and VS MAXs have LMGs that fire at less than full speed. So what would happen if you slowed down scattercannons to be proportionally as slow to shotguns as the other guns are to LMGs?

I'm going to use the TR MAX for this comparison because their damage per bullet is equal to scattercannon damage per pellet and because the VS MAX has an image problem.

The Mercy has a refire rate of 141ms. That's 76% longer than the 80ms refire time of the CARV (which does the same damage per bullet).

Increasing the refire times of the scattercannons by 76% gives you 352ms for the Hacksaw and 422ms for the other three. That takes the 5m ideal TTK against MAXs from 1.0s or 1.2s to 1.76s or 2.11s (this assumes no missed pellets, no headshots, no kinetic armor, and no damage falloff). The ideal 5m TTK for Mercies is 4.79s. So, you'd still die but you'd take 40% or 50% of his health fighting him in his optimal range. You might even beat the NC MAX at 5m, if you got a half second advantage on him and landed all headshots. Even after equalizing the scattercannon's speed infantry would still be near insta-killed up close. In short, not much would change.

I don't imagine dying 76% slower would satisfy most of the people calling for scattercannon nerfs. I imagine those people would point out that an equalized Hacksaw would still be dealing 2437.5 dps, easily double what a Mercy puts outs. I'd tell those people about 4 degrees of pellet spread, the increased damage falloff for shotgun pellets, and about the nature of limited burst damage versus sustained damage but I don't think I'd convince them of much.

Then what about reducing how much the NC MAX could kill before it reloads? What if you reduced the damage of the scattercannon?


Well... you actually can't.


It turns out the scattercannon is very finely tuned against MAXs, in terms of how much damage per magazine it has. If an NC MAX can't kill another MAX before reloading it dies. Full stop.

A stock dual Hacksaw MAX can fire 84 pellets before reloading. 70 of those 84 pellets have to hit and hit at full damage to kill a MAX. Those 14 extra pellets give some wiggle room to compensate for cone of fire and human error. Even the smallest reduction in magazine size, pellet number, or pellet damage would render a stock NC MAX incapable of killing a MAX without reloading and thus incapable of beating a MAX in a duel.

Have you ever wondered why you almost never see a dual Mattock MAX? It's because dual Mattocks don't have enough damage per magazine to kill a MAX at 0m.

The secret of scattercannons is that it doesn't really matter how fast they fire. They're limited by damage per magazine and range. The Hacksaw isn't the most powerful scattercannon, the Grinder is. A MAX with kinetic armor 5 can tank any 7 round scattercannon that doesn't have extended magazines.

Nerfing scattercannons to a point that would be satisfying for TR and VS MAX players, without breaking the NC MAX, is too difficult. It would be much easier to just buff TR and VS accuracy. When all their rounds hit, their guns can kill infantry in less than half a second. Why not give them their niche as mid-range terrors?

What's the problem with actually pulling the other MAX suits up to par. The idea of a MAX is to break through a defence or hold a base not to stand at some random mid range and fire away. You can get lucky with your chaingun and kill an enemy quickly but sometimes you don't hit anything because of the cone of fire. They are very unreliable. I'd rather have a different way of being good in CQC than just slapping a shotun to the TR MAX but we need a MAX that does well in CQC. Right now the max roll for the other factions require a defined role. Hopefully once they adress the MAX class they will add some sweet CQC options for TR/VS and give some Mid range options to NC.

NC AI max only out DPS the TR AI max out to 10m, from 10m > maximum range that TR AI max out DPS the NC AI max..... what balance is needed?

Make the NC AI max supbar to the TR AI max from 1m or something?

We're all talking mainly about shotguns but I'd like to point out how terrible the pounder is compared to the falcon. The falcon is amazing relatively, and a signifcant part of what makes the stock NC MAX so much better.

Frankly, more than any sort of nerf or buff, I'd like to see some uniqueness in the TR and VS MAX:es. Let NC be a monster at short range, but give something for the other factions that makes them stand apart from the NC.

I still find how similar all the AI weapons are for the MAXes revolting. Who says the Mattock should only be effective to 15m? Make it a sniper shotgun that has a small enough spread to be effective out to 50m, and balance its damage/RoF accordingly. Make the high RoF TR/VS guns (they're so bad, and so rarely used, that I don't even know their names) have 800+ RPM per arm, and hold the spread of a shotgun. Currently all the variants of every MAX AI weapon add a few percent to this or that stat, when the opportunity exists to allow wildly different playstyles based on your choice of weapon. The Hacksaw is still going to be the best at close range, but you'd give the other empires a close-range choice without "lol give them shotguns + flamethrowers."

Hey let's keep creating 3-4 of these threads every single day, presenting the same tired arguments over and over again, our collective tears will overfloweth the nerf cup and there will be much rejoicing.

Sniping reliably with a falcon?

Just stop, it's embarrassing.

No.

First, they have to bring the NC MAX back in line and down to TR and VS's level. Then we can buff all of the MAXs up if that is needed.

The NC MAX is broken. It is not an ideal for the other MAXs to progress towards.
They should not buff TR and VS up into insta gibbing infantry and other MAXs in under a second. Nor should NC MAXs continue to be allowed to do so.

Give me a large heavy Minigun similar to the 30 put on the Prowler but for Anti infantry combat. It will make Tr MAX even slower but i will be able to clean an entire room in a second MUHAHAHAHAHA.

But seriously i want two hand heavy weapon options for my MAX O_O why else having a large exoskeleton with 10 times the strength of a normal man.

Like this?

For starters...it sounds like you want every shotgun in the game nerfed then, since they all can kill before the person can react. But, moving along. I have played a scatter max, as well as a dual mercy max, and...whatever that vanu gun is...you guys have too many space related names for me to keep track.

1 vs 1, the vanu max really isn't that intimidating. Their weapons feel like copy pasted and then made inferior versions of a cycler with spiffy plasma looking rounds. So, here, I will agree that the vanu max could use a buff, because its a little off when its AV weapon is the best AI weapon. I'm not entirely sure what it would take to get them on par with the others, but a start would be giving all the weapons they have a role. It almost feels like the only difference between them is clip size.

Next, the TR max. Despite the small numerical differences between the cycler and mercy, the mercy is a significant upgrade. You can take people out across a bio lab with it, which, for a short ranged weapon, is pretty good all things considered. Now, max vs max, in my dual mercy max, I have lost once to a hacksaw max, and that was because he had full hp, and I did not, due to prior engagements. The rest of the time, even up close, I can dispatch them fairly easily with headshots. The one thing I would suggest for the TR max though, is a bit more defined weapons...something with a high fire rate, larger CoF for up close, and then tighten up the CoF on the mercy a little and use it as a mid range weapon. I know TR has a cycler thats suppose to be up close...so take that and improve it for that role. That way, it can pick between short and medium range. Maxes are mostly about specialization after all.

Lastly...the NC max. I don't feel there is an issue with the scattercannons. If a max gets that close to me...well, I apparently was deaf and didn't hear it thudding along. It is a shotgun, and like infantry shotguns, will usually kill you before you get to react. I've seen a HA with the auto shotty clear a room and only the last guy got a shot off. If you get the drop on someone with a shotty, you pretty much win. Only bonus is, with a max...you can at least hear it coming. The one issue I do have with the max...and shotguns in general, is there is absolutely no reason to not use the autos. You came up with all these scattercannon variants...and they are all obsolete. I'd like to see some sort of a reason to use them added. Higher damage, significantly tighter spread (a la AA-12 type of spread, where its actually pretty accurate at range, while still being buckshot) or something to set them apart, and make people really decide which they want to use.

And lastly...a general statement about maxes. 1 v 1, max vs infantry...the max should win unless the infantry is smart and out plays them. Maxes have counters, just like anything else. Figure out what they are and then use them.

TL;DR - Buff the Vanu Max possibly by giving it more role defined AI weapons and make them not cycler clones, slight buffs to the TR max and weapon adjustments to fit various short to mid range roles, and do something with the non-auto scatters so people might actually use them.

Anyways, that's my 2 cents, 2 certs...whichever you wanna go with. And I really didn't plan on writing that much >.<