Betelgeuse 54-A is OP

Being used or have been used once within the last 3 years? That's a HUGE difference. That the others have never been used for more than a few minutes(and hence do not show up in that statistic) has mainly to do with the fact that the other factions got better guns than those....while the Betelgeuse was the best VS(!!) gun prior to the nerfs.

This is not a valid argument within the confines of Dasanfall's data. Everything could have only been used three years ago or used every single day. Just assume everything sees the same average usage per player over time.

The Butcher previously had the highest DPS of any LMG in the game until the Watchman came along, and the GODSAW is more or less a regular SAW with a better reload. If anyone wanted use to either yet had the directive variant, like the VS they'd mostly go with the shiny one.

Best is an opinion, hard to say anything other than that it was one of the best. Yet even today the Orion sees the most use for VS with a significantly larger margin between it and the next most popular. The VS don't seem to really think there are many LMGs worth using over one.

Yes, the Orion is the best LMG for VS...and on top of that the stock LMG. What's your point? That because VS players use the Orion, the Betelgeuse has to be the best gun in game? I don't see that logic...sorry....

The point is that it's a damn good gun and the only reason it's not more popular than it is is because of the unlock requirements.

You claimed "the other factions got better guns than those" which even if true, would mean that the Orion would be the only better LMG for the VS. The gun that is almost the exact same as the Betelgeuse.

How can an OP weapon have a 6 second cool down? Honestly the Betelgeuse is just an orion with 2 less bullets and a heat mechanic, it's a very adaptible weapon, but that means it sacrifices specialization, and will be at a disadvantage in many situations. Only good players that burst fire and land headshots will be able to make this weapon and many others seem OP. OP means a weapon that is way better than any other weapon in any situation. This is not the case with the Betelgeuse, much more with a heat mechanic that makes it impossible to kill more than 5 or 6 enemies in a row without overheating. Since you can't mow down large groups of enemies, and there's weapons that outgun it in many situations,, it's not an OP weapon, only the player is.

I still don't see your point. I don't say that the Betelgeuse ain't one of the best VS guns...I just say that the stats are mostly because only experienced players can use it and that it would not be used that much if VS would have other better guns(this is what happens/happened to the directive guns of the other factions). That says nothing about Betelgeuse being OP in general tho...

Some comments tempted to suggest that I have no valid argument because I have no statistics ?? I give you a stats: 50% of the vannus who kill me use the betelgeuse ... do you understand now? It's a bit huge as a figure but it's true. The specific problem I have with this weapon is its TTK ... Do you like scenarios? Here is the scenario that is repeated: I arrive behind the VS, I start shooting him in the back at least 5 balls ... he turns around and in 0.2 seconds, he kills me. Some people tried to make fun of me by saying (among other things) that I had a KD of 0.2 ... it's 0.9 my KD. If Betelgeuse is not OP why do so many people use it? If it is a weapon of proximity why is it good at any distance? I point that weapon to the fact that VS is winning most of the alerts... Because One OP weapon may not be a problem but when most of the HA use the same gun, the OP factor is multiplying and the fun is divided for the TR and NC... maybe im wrong and i must go play another game...that not a problem.

Chaingun and nighthawk counters it pretty well in cqc, bull and msw-r also do well against it in most engagements. at mid range-long range use rhino or tmg-50 and you will have a better chance.

My point is that if the Betelgeuse isn't OP (which I don't think it is) it's quite close to it. The base weapon itself is very good and the directive variant is pretty much identical. The only real difference is a heat mechanic attachment in the rail slot so that a laser or grip can't be equipped at the same time.

So you want to nerf the Orion and MSW-R too, considering they both have the same "low" TTK and are more accurate in addition?

Why not use an MSW-R, which is the exact same gun but with better attachments?

The reason it seems so much stronger is that it is disproportionately used by good players, in comparison to other guns. Not only is it a directive gun, which already eliminates most players that haven't used HA/LMGs extensively, but also it is an infamous tool for farming. So automatically it will attract pretty much every decent HA player to grind for it. This type of player is far better than the average player, probably averaging 3-4 KD and higher (compared to the average 0.8 - 0.9 KD). Going up against such players will give the impression that the gun is exceptionally good, when in reality the players using it are just more skilled than the average opponent you will meet. The TTK of the Betelgeuse is the exact same of the Orion and MSW-R, would you call those guns OP too? I doubt it.

You do not know the proper use of "by definition".

It still baffles me that such inaccurate, RNG-based guns are popular, like the Rhino, TMG-50 (buff this gun it's terrible and worthless), and in this category I include the Orion/Betelgeuse and T9 Carv/Butcher, guns I regard for 'support' or suppress/sustained fire-type roles, when there's truly accurate and controllable guns like the MSW-R/Bull/Watchman/Polaris/Anchor/Maw/NS15/Saw/Promise/GD22.

I fully believe it is network related advantages (very bad ping, or better ping) that afford such players up to an entire second of an advantage to burst fire those otherwise inaccurate LMGs if not outright cheats.


Here's my examples of network-related shenanigans, game aspects the original PS2 devs should have buffed out to make a more competitive & fair gaming environment but absolutely neglected or failed to:

- Turn a corner and players see you and react to you instantly, but take cover or ambush-jet behind cover and still receive damage from absolutely impossible angles ("die behind cover"). Tick rate seems to work in strange ways, or rather somehow always against you.

-Fire on players, and their player model 'slows' then when killed they teleport half a meter away (their true location) to drop dead.

-Fire on player, observe their ADAD spam become teleportations left-right.

-Drive a tank into a max, see their body inside your tank, max receives zero damage. Run over enemy players or anticipate their future 'actual' location, no road kill. Drive by team mates and TK-Roadkill instantly.

- Anticipate an enemy player to come down a hallway and ADS, but they appear/materialize (no in-between movement) beside the hallway already firing at you.

- Fire & land 6 shots at a heavy using a high damage gun including one or two headshots you drop dead they have full shield and health and no implants that regenerate shield and no way their overshield tanked that much damage - whose user name brags about having poor ping.

- Receive damage and observe your own shield shimmer a bit, but take zero damage. Kill players in duels who you know should have killed you instead.

- Clientside - anything you see isn't what is really happening and are approximations.

- Duel or play alongside friends who plays from across the ocean during small or big battles and they don't seem to teleport or have ping advantages, dual others who are clearly from same places (play off hours) and they teleport/burst damage you/materialize around corners

- Play off-hours or during low server pop - horrible experience that amplifies the above

the stats of the weapon, are from 2012. After nerfs and nerfs, the stats say nothing about this weapon.

exemple, the orion was a op weapon befor he got nerfed to ground, with the same stats like now.
after this weapon got nerfed, stats are still same. orion still got a 0,5 ads, but i thing i remember they nerfed lmg to 0.75 ads


why is it so easy with a bettelkg. land 4 head shots without forward grip and why is it so hard to do the same with the orion even though it has the grip

Out of curiosity, does it have 200 in its name?

Yes.

Im pretty sure I saw one of his videos, was it twitch or YouTube, cant remember, thats his literal latency.

Dude. It's an Orion. Nothing more, nothing less.

The difference is that the player using it has a minimum of ~5500 kills before they are even allowed to use it. The overall skill level of such players will be above the average.

You are getting clowned because the player beating you is better than you. Period.


If you nerf this gun two things will happen:
1. It will indeed be the proverbial last straw and many players will quit.
2. Those that remain will flip back to the Orion, and they'll continue to club on you mercilessly until you start a "nerf the orion" thread.

Is this clear to you?