balance tanks

In the current meta (at least on miller server) i feel that tanks balance is a bit messed.

Prowler in particular suffer a lot against Vanguart.

While magrider can take advantage of his mobility to handle vanguard i-win shield, problem is just a sitting duck, without better range nor enough firepower to overcome vanguard beefy endurance.

As TR (i play also the other factions, lost my main account during prosieben migration, so don't look at the br) is really frustrating try to go around with a tank (also for phoenix weapons , max and heavy variants). Prowler simply doesn't have enough mobility to dodge all this damage.

As Vanu, even if so far my magrider is relatively uncerted, i can outplay or outsmart a vanguard driver or dodge some damage.

I'm not polemic, i play all the three factions... but I usually enjoy joining the less populated one, and , at least on miller, nc are always well represented.

Maybe should we look at the issue ?

Lock-down AP prowler can out-DPS an AP Vanguard with its shield from the front.

Personally I'd advocate for buffing the Vanguard, but that's another discussion altogether. The Prowler definitely doesn't need a buff of any sort though, in my opinion.

Scenario
Vanguard meets prowler, 1v1, no other damage sources:

Outcomes:

1. Neither vanguard or prowler uses their ability (no shield, no anchor) - Prowler wins, easily.
2. Both Vanguard and Prowler activate their abilities, Prowler gets first shot in - Prowler wins.
3. Both Vanguard and Prowler activate their abilities, Vanguard gets first shot in - Vanguard wins.
4. Prowler Activates anchor, Vanguard shield is on cooldown - Prowler wins
5. Vanguard activates shield, prowler does not anchor - Vanguard wins

So without abilities the prowler wins, with them its who gets first shot.

Also take into account multiple vehicles, the Vanguards can only shield up for 1 kill, the Prowlers can remain anchored for as long (or short) as they like, and with the change to anchor can immediately move upon un-anchoring.

Please also consider the abilities of both to take out other targets, an anchored prowler will melt a sunderer almost as fast as it can be spawned. A prowler has so much DPS it can kill through the front armour of a lightning faster than the lightning can kill the prowler through its rear armour.
The Vanguard is king of AA, but its also the only MBT that has to wait for one of its guns to reload to kill a harasser.

Seem pretty well balanced to me.
Also i lost a 1v1 with a prowler the other day, he was 2/2 AP vulcan, i was 2/2 AP Halberd. I recorded as i was suprised as the outcome and upon review his shot landed a few shades of a second before mine. Well played to that prowler (i also play with him on his NC).


Not sure if you know this, and no im not floating my own boat, but the 3 highest killers (all servers, all time) with Titan AP cannons are all on Miller:
http://ps2.fisu.pw/leaderboard/player//?item=3730#kills
NC Miller have some good tankers overall, i know several just as good as me but with less time played.

If anything, I'd say that the Maggie needs some lovin'. Apparently it can be really scary if run by a really good crew, but there seems to be an extremely high skill floor to using the Maggie well.....

I use to tank for a bit back in the days, on all 3 faction. So here is my experience.

1.Prowlers are the best at medium to large fight because their DPS is much higher then the other tank, even without lockdown. More targets mean damage is more diluted for your side, you get shot at less. Also best in medium to long range fight with their lockdown. Farm armour zergs for days with those AP shells.

2. The magrider is an AP lightning that can go sideway plus an extra top gun.(or a harraser)
It is great vs anything that is not a MBT just like the lightning platform. "Funnest" because it can go basically anywhere, I been on top of a biolab pad and on the roofs of many bases.

3.You don't win vs a competant vanguard crew in a 1v1.

Anecdote: my maggie sneaked behind a vanny and unloaded an ap shell and halbert shot in his rear. He immidiately swung his turret around, and his front to me, shot me once with his main gun, popped shield and hopped out to repair while his Enforcer hitted us about a few times, then too hopped out and started to repair. All while I was able to get 2 more AP shot in and my gunner 1 more halbert(he missed once while trying to shoot the engi). The shield did not go down btw, it timed out and because we couldn't manuver behind him again since there were other threats in the area. So they hopped back in when the shield wored off, and now I'm front to front with a 90% hp vanny while I'm at ~70%since he got off one shot and the constant dps of a Enforcer is ridiculous. So we slinked away with our superior speed and afterburned over a slope. Did the same thing to many prowler in and out of lockdown and we got the kill even though they get us down to ~40% if they were a decent shot.

As much as the forum warrior will pull up stats or make excuses about other factor such as speed and reload time and such. I can and will always pick a vanguard in a 1v1 or even a small squad of tank fight. The complaint about HA over shield being OP in infantryside is translated to Vehicleside in the vanny shield, even before factoring in that you can repair while the shield is up.

From a MBT vs MBT perpective at least. I won't start on harraser because I believe they are the strongest if used right.

2 thing I like to see:

1.Vanny wise; add a delay to the activation of the vanguard's shield 2-3 second, buff the duration by half of the delay to compensate, use it to push, not a panic/I win button.

2.All vehicle wise; can't repair a vehicle for 3-4 second after it get shot, maybe only by APs round if they somehow can code that in(buff the deploymentshield HP on sundays to compensate for spawns). Want to fix something, get out of combat first, buff repair tool by ~15%, nice tradeoff. Revert the backseat repair for harraser and valk to 50%, sure it can be fix faster too, just get out of combat first.

Overall, morale of the story is, play VS if you want fun, TR if you want to farm, and NC if you want to win in tank fights.

1. this would do nothing, in the scenario you posted, youd be waiting 3.75 seconds to shoot again, this owuld not have killed the vanguard, he now has his shield, for a longer duration ill add, while your stuck on probably less than 70% as he could have shot 2 shells before you killed him or he was able to pop shield.

Nothing short of removing the shield and buffing the vanguard chassis to a similar level of the TR and VS one will suffice to remove your 'problem' but tbh, you engaged a vanguard, realised you couldnt win, then retreated and survived, not sure what your problem is. Also the van has no shield now for up to a minute (45 secs min) why didnt you repair, then re-engage and crush the vanguard? Without its shield its pretty much toast in that situation.

Not moving the goal post here but let say even 4 second of delay, 3.75(3.25maxreload) my fpc or 3.25(2.75halberd), if I can even get one more round in before he puts his shield up, he will be at lower to comparable HP to me once his shield go down(time or DPS wise) then I can actually have a chance with a vanguard that I flanked and got Alpha damage on? Ok, scratch this suggestion if you think 4second is too long.

Well ok then, what if he didn't get out and just slug it out with me, popped his shield 2k hp basically "healed" for 50% of his hp, we start a slug fest, who do you think wins.

He has better front armour and the gunner weapons are halbert(for flanking and alpha) vs the Enforcer(constant DPS). Ain't dodging **** at 30-50meter because this is after I successfully ambushed. Gee wonder who will win in this front to front slugfest.

Secondly, you said reengage? The only advantage a maggie have is speed and alpha damage from flanking, I wasted that getting the shield down.Do you think he will let me do the same thing twice? The thing about the element of suprise is you lose it once you use it once.

So in the first scenario(mine) at best I got the **** away. To even get to your, "why don't you reengage in a fight with a stronger tank then yours in a head on slugfest" I have to succesfully flank you once and make you pop shield. I'll grant 1 minute is forever long in a combat zone, but to only have a window of 1 minute to reengage you.

I'm not looking at only the negative, I play to the strenght of my platform, if I flanked a prowler I usually win that. I expect to lose if its headon, especially if he gets into lockdown mode. What do I get for flanking a vanguard, only losing situations if he is half way decent.

Also when was the last time you charged into a lockdown prowler. Stop presenting theoritical situations that you just happen to lose to say that the vanguard is weak Mister "my profile pic is a vanny". If you actually put yourself into those situations then you are either lying or stupid.

So yeah, I'm a bit frustrated with the vanny shield, but you got to admit how strong it is right? I wouldn't mind a balanced vanguard or a new faction ability other then the HA shield for tank, as long as I can play around it in my prowler or maggie.

Newsflash: The Vanguard sucks.

The Vanguard Shield is probably one of the best abilities out there. It's universally useable, it's got barely a drawback and you will find that Vanguards will use it at least once in during their use. Compare that to for instance Anchor mode, which is very rarely used and in specific scenario's, and Magburn with isn't used often during combat, and the shield is supa-dupa good.
And still the Vanguard is barely the best MBT killer? And worse at killing most other vehicles? And is behind in almost every other statistic compared to the Prowler and Magrider? Oh it's got killing aircraft on it's resume, but that happens so relatively little it's not worth mentioning that much.

As Stalkish metioned, the Vanguard chassis needs an upgrade, and it needs it badly. Only then can you think of changing things to the Vanguard Shield. The biggest problem is that it's advantages are less useful than those of the Prowler and Magrider during large-scale group engagements.

Vanguard: extra resistance compared to the other two tanks. Only useful for the tanks being attacked at that moment. Same of the shield: Only useful for the players being engaged.
Prowler: The advantage is pure extra DPS and a relatively nimble tank, with the added bonus of being the fastest MBT. The advantage of the Prowlers increases the more Prowlers there are, which doesn't happen that much with Vanguards.
Magrider: Magriders have their unique movement. The Prowler and Vanguard always need to position themselves in such a way that they can quicky get back into cover, the Magrider doesn't and can get into cover much easier and from spots that the other tanks can only dream off. This means that the Magrider can be more efficient with the amount of terrain available, meaning more Magriders having a good firing position, and more guns firing at the same target, effectively increasing their DPS compared to that of their enemy. As a bonus, there's also more targets to shoot at, meaning that the NC/TR team they are fighting won't focus-fire that much.

So the Prowler and Magrider gain more power than the Vanguard in large groups. Add insult to injury and make the Vanguard almost completely reliant on it's shield but put the shield on a long cooldown, and you can see why the NC loses a lot of battles.

Thanks for the tips... but you not considering the cover. prowler under anchor cannot move between shots... while every other tank can tank advantage of a cover, and good pilots usually do.

ironically vanguard usually sits at the bottom of the MBT food chain while prowler usually reigns supreme at the top.

Check http://ps2oraclestats.com/monthly-vehicle-deaths/. 6months old but unless there was a major change in tank combat that I miss, should still be valid.

For MBT:

Killer of Q4 prowler: Titan-150 AP: 8.63* #1 Supernova FPC: 5.54. #4
Killer of all prowler: Titan-150 AP: 8.13* #1 Supernova FPC: 5.21. #4

Killer of Q4 mag: P2-120 AP: 7.83 #1 Titan-150 AP: 6.55 #2
Killer of all mag: P2-120 AP: 7.55 #1 Titan-150 AP: 6.22 #2

Killer of Q4 vanny: P2-120 AP: 10.20* #1 Supernova FPC: 4.79 #4
Killer of all vanny: P2-120 AP: 9.78* #1 Supernova FPC: 5.12 #4


*Fun fact, check c4 kills, it out performs the maggie vs both mbt.
**Also note that vs deaths if you care to check, its considerably lower that those of the other MBT(~33%). Which strongly indicate that VS pull way less "MBT" then their counter parts.

As you can see the mag rider is the worst, its not even a MBT, like I said, its a lightning that can move sideway with an extra top gun.

With no faction ability, its a 50-50 for who wins in a prowler vs vanny fight(who gets first shot). The Magrider is not even in contention because it does neither, it relies on flanking which progressively gets hard in larger fights or versus opponents with higher awareness.

The reason ,I believe, why prowlers marginally out perform the vanny is because most armour battle start and are fought around the ranges that the prowler excel at, medium to long range shelling followed by a push when the oppositon is wittled down.

If its a 1v1 in the wild when both are trying to flank, I would still give it to the vanny solely because you can move while your shield is up, the prowler is a sitting target in lockdown. DPS count for **** if your target is behind a rock that you can't hit, and if you chase him out of your lockdown he still got the "I win" shield. If he is stupid enough to fight head on without cover after the first few shots then yea, the vangaurd deserve to die. If a maggie meets a vanny in the wild, you run, thats how you win.

VS don't even have a main battle tank. VS got a better lightning. So I'll stick with original point; VS if you want fun, TR if you want to farm, and NC if you want to win.

Vinbards can be effective. But they are at their most effective when they remember they can have shields.

So when Wrel promises longer vehicle fights this year it can only mean that damage goes down or resistance goes up. Either way long range engagements will become a waste of time as everyone will just run away when in trouble.

So what is a tank to do? Not much option other than get in closer to secure a kill. Not the best strategy for lightnings and Mags at the moment.

Special abilities aside, I wish MBT's had the same effectiveness against each other at all ranges.

Yep - after playing all three factions (and tanking a lot) for years, the Vanguard chassis the the most miserable by some margin.

Racer ? Like putting it on skates and you'll slide all over, go sideways along hills (not in a good way) and slip down slopes you really didn't want to. As bad as the Racer lightning without the speed. The Racer Prowler is far superior for some reason.

Rival ? Slow and stodgy - literally crawls along.

Don't get me wrong - shield is awesome and wins many battles, but it's just not much fun driving the damn thing. Magrider has its fair share of issues but at least it is fun, and Prowler is just 'nice'...

That depends. If Vanguard gets the first shot, but prowler shoots back fast, then vanguard is going to lose anyways.

I'll offer a more moderate opinion. Yes in the end I think Prowler >Magrider>Vanguard (OVERALL), but I think that isn't bad at all.
The Prowler is a DPS beast. It isn't just a bit higher, it is many percentages higher. In addition the Prowler has a higher allowance for missed shots and is better for killing infantry with it's dual shot. In combination with some sneaking and flanking, or just simply defensively, the deploy mode can be a true nightmare. It can cripple and even destroy before you even get a good bearing. The 2nd gunner options are now a full good roster with the addition of the Gatekeeper and the earlier Vulcan. Good damage and reliability on their intended ranges.
The Vanguard is steady but not remarkable. Good alpha damage, good shield and nothing much else to say. Shield helps closing gaps and can be a tremendous help against flanking and such, but with a minimal 45 second cooldown and "only" 2000 extra health (if I remember correctly) do give this awesome power some pretty steep downsides, as the Vanguard is very weak on it's own, lacking high DPS and manoeuvrability. Top guns are reliable and strong, although contending withbdrop and weird mechanics like the spread of the Mjolnir and the reload of the Enforcer is sometimes a chore.
Then the Magrider. I main NC, but this thing is a beast. When I first picked it up it was with pretty much all stock weapons, a boost and a Saron. After a few trial and burn tests we got the hang of it. Sneak up via hilly terrain and let your gunner dump his mag into the back. Fire a stock primary after it and the battle is practically won, even with shielded Vanguards.
The magdump together with the movement is incredibly dangerous. Where I normally use Lightnings to great effect for flanking, now I use a Lightning that can traverse terrain much more easily, boost if needed and has an insane gun on top. Sometimes you just round a corner, see an unexpected enemy MBT, you fire until you're close and ask your gunner to hold fire just a sec. Boost over the enemy tank and a double damage magdump will put fear and good damage down.

Each tank has many pro's and cons, but the Magrider really shines in hilly terrain. Choose your battles, move away from bad decisions and you'll be a beast with each MBT against all targets but air.

1st step to tank driving correctly is never drive alone. Might as well drive a LIghtning if you drive alone as that 2nd gun is not there to look pretty.

The Magrider is more of a tank detroyer being quite agile and mobile allowing it to easily get behind enemy Armor.

The Vanguard is a olde fashion tank being hard-to-kill with pretty potent weapons, its the toughest of the 3 MBTs.

The Prowler does huge damage, particularly when locked down, it does the most damage of the 3 MBTs, it can shred through player-made bases with ease particularly when you equip the Gatekeeper as your 2nd guns #GatekeeperOP.

The prowler is also much easier to land shots with than the vanguard. Sure pros dont miss but you dont need to be a pro to nail shots with the prowler. The vanguards slow firing hard-hitting cannon heavily punishes the unpracticed user. The prowlers rapid fire cannon is much more forgiving to missed shots. The reduced projectile drop when anchored is also a major boon for the prowler.

The prowler is designed to rule the range game and it does. The vanguard is designed more for cqc and it does that well. The mag is designed to be mobile and counter both.

There is one flaw in your logic, its called terrain, its also the reason why Prowler is the worst of all 3 MBTs with its 0 defensive abilities and the "offensive one" with a huge drawback.
Mobility and damage rule this game, not dps.

You forgot another one... Prowler sits on top of the mountain... Vanguard lose with or without abilities...
Another thing... Prowler wins in long range fight even before vanguard enters its effective range...
Imagine prowler team firepower with their long range weapon sits on top of the mountain... raining tank shell