As a full time Liberator Pilot

any claim that threatens to hurt their cheese.

yes it is.

Wanting daltons nerfed when they simply are not an issue when compared to actual ESF deaths.

ESF weapons are incredibly versatile and effective at very long ranges, rotary the exemption. Flying an ESF though a different experience then gunning for a lib is easier in the since of being able to control air craft movement and munitions, as the lib gunner relies on the pilot for appropriate range and angles to be had. I can control all aspects of my ESF and place myself within the optimal range to maximize my damage output while the lib is forced to coordinate between gunner and pilot. If you feel the ESF is lacking in capabilities when compared to the Lib then I'd suggest you practice more as ESF are dominant right now from my experience.

Absolutely untrue as I have run into countless libs that never even bother to belly up and return fire from the main gun, hell some never even bother to fire the tail gun at me. Though competent lib crews will engage you as that is the best option more times then not due to the fact Libs lose to ESF at range. Even if they pursue you as the ESF "YOU" control the fight with your abilities to be faster and more agile you can maintain distance and make dalton shots nearly impossible to be landed on you as range gives you ample time to dodge any dalton round being fired at you. The mechanics are in favor of the ESF pilot, if they can't be bothered to take advantage of them and engage libs at close range while flying straight they deserve a dalton to the face.

Yes, that chance of scoring a hit how ever unlikely for the average player adds a chance of survival for that lib crew, as even the threat of a dalton hit scares many ESF pilots. I kind of compare it to a tank shooting air craft out of the air, not its intended purpose and not always easy to achieve yet it adds a welcomed aspect to PS2 as long as the likely hood of it happening is reduced with either a high skill demand or mechanical barrier. I enjoy aspects of games having high skill ceiling goals like this to strive for, gives players something difficult to goal towards yet even when achieved it is not as reliable as you claim it to be.

You want them buffed in their proper roll yet nerfed in regards to engaging ESF, that is still calling for a nerf Ratzo. The simple fact is competent ESF pilots dominate libs, accidents or lucky shots may happen but you will win 9/10 times if you play it smart. How much more of an advantage do you want man? Why do you people want everything kiddy gloved and forced into a Rock paper scissors scenario?

Nope expecting a basic level of player competence required to achieve a kill is not a very far fetched thing to ask for. ESF dominate libs, even more so if they stay at range. If ESF pilots close the gap they can increase the TTK but also increase the likely hood of eating a dalton round. Not very hard concepts to wrap around ones head I feel Ratzo.

They also curbstomp their intended targets more often than not, so it's not like they need buffs there.

I don't think you meant "an unnecessary claim" (which really makes no sense) I think you meant wanting something you don't also want.

Have you ever flown an ESF? What weapons are you using? Perhaps you dreamed it... there isn't a single A2G weapon on an ESF that lets you engage a target outside of their max damage range against you. There no "very long range" ESF weapons. You may want to discuss the long range tomcat cert, but even it is useless and just another spam it until you get a kill weapon. (All lockons should be removed from the game.)

So being in complete control of the vehicle all by your self is what makes it easier? How about being able to fly in a different direction than you are shooting? Or how about dividing the tasks between evasive manoeuvres and continued positive engagement between multiple persons? How about being able to attack and defend at the very same moment? How about the ever popular 'don't bother trying to shoot, just ram the ESF' Sorry friend but the Lib is not harder than an ESF to be effective in combat with.

If you feel the need to insult the person you are arguing against that is a good indication you are on the loosing side. Keep the insults to yourself. You may consider for a second that I am discussing things apart from skill or personal injury.

Sigh.... of course no libs follow ESFs around the server endlessly shooting daltons at them... of course not. I'm just imagining it, and this thread is now 24 pages long because it isn't something people experience. Again, why if the Dalton is so ineffective a weapon against air - WHY do you care? It simply won't make a difference to the game at all if it is fixed to work as it is supposed to work. But you continue to defend it passionately... actions vs words my friend actions vs words.

Again if it is so rarely effective then removing it won't matter. It is an irritant to many more than it is a pleasure for. I think the net gain of having this mechanic fixed is clear.

Mommmy he wants my weapon to work the way it is supposed to work!!! Are you desperate to be right? Yes I want to nerf the Dalton from having the ability to one shot an ESF, but I want to buff it against armour and infantry. I want the Lib to be dangerous but need to be protected by other ESFs because I want EVERYONE to have a REAL role to play in the game. ooooooo I'm such a bad guy.

You keep saying that... .got any proof of this? Or is it just more "L2P" BS?

LOL wow for a weapon that isn't effective and hardly ever gets a kill you sure are protective of keeping it the way it is...

Yes when someone doesn't agree with you the old "if you could play you would agree" or "L2P" ad hominem attack is the way to go.

I feel like using the dalton against esf's is exactly the same thing as using the main gun of a mbt to kill an aircraft.

The difference is that the MBT can't aim in every direction. Where as a rolling Lib can.

Also a MBT can't follow you around to continue shooting.

The main difference - according to my experience - is that 90%+ of the time a MBT downs an ESF it IS skill and 90%+ of the time a Lib with a Dalton downs an ESF it is dumb luck.

I have been killed by MBT when I just plain should have been flying smarter, but most of the time I congratulate the tanker on a great shot because that's exactly what it was.

My... my... Momma says to neva leav 'da gate unless papa Rudelord or Rguitar is there to hold my lil'ol hand.

Word of advice, check the numbers before going all crazy with your posts mate. It has been proven both by independent numbers and SoE's that Dalton's kill the least number of ESF's

Now since this is a 'personal' problem for you, I would say congratulations. You are good enough to not die to the majority of things most pilots do and you should keep pushing onward.

I have more then double the time as you in an ESF and still within the top ten of Rotary and hell fire kills, think my experience qualifies . Have you ever used a stock gun on an ESF or simply rocket pods? Though all ESF nose guns have a damage fall off at different ranges I can put substantial and constant DPS on any rendered vehicle in the game with either, though hitting aircraft at range with rocket pods is highly unlikely. If you don't feel the stock nose guns are not effective at range with an ESF then you are drastically underestimating their damage output.

In the comparison of engaging a target absolutely, allowing yourself to be gunner and pilot gives a distinct advantage. Libs must rely upon the skill level of multiple people and coordinate to reach its full potential, ESF is one individual thus easier to operate overall. I can also be just as defensive with my ESF while still engaging you, its called the reverse maneuver. The libs only strength is its HP and ability to actually flee and still fire rounds but as I stated those rounds are incredibly easy to avoid if the ESF pilot maintains a safe distance, not to mention I always get a kick out of libs running into things because they haven't mastered upside down flying yet. And if you actually think libs ramming you is OP I can't even begin to see your perspective.

There was no intention of insulting you, if you are struggling with libs then practice more, mechanics are in favor of ESF the only things that will hold you back is personal performance.

I never said lib crews don't hunt air, I actually explained to you that that is one of the skill ceiling goals to strive for. The thing is though they can spam all they want it won't do any good but get them killed if the ESF actually understands the strengths and weaknesses of the two air craft. Over all I want libs to be a threat to air as it adds a more enjoyable experience, I want there to be actual risk when I fight a lib, not elementary game play of paper beats rock. You are continuing down this very bland path of absolutes which quite frankly create a far less engaging type of game, versatility when in proper balance is a good thing.

That potential threat is critical in many Libs chance of survival as a show of force can scare off many attackers. Out of the vast majority of pilots I speak to few and far between share your opinions of daltons being OP to ESF. They accept if someone lands a shot on them it is because they screwed up or the lib got lucky, removing that threat makes libs even more vulnerable then they already are. And for the sake of being a broken record becoming a Ace gunner is an end game goal to strive for, removing high skill ceiling niches hurts longevity of the player base not improve it.

I'm sorry but you were calling for a nerf then claimed you didn't, no reason to get upset with me over that one. As far as the dalton being UP the only issue it has is its ammo supply which was over nerfed. Even with me being an average gunner I can pillage ground targets with little issues, though hitting infantry takes skill now which is a good thing. Currently the Dalton needs no buffs in anyway other then ammo supply, as far as nerfs It again needs no adjustments as the actual numbers of dalton deaths don't merit it.

It is the opinion of every good ESF or Lib crew that I speak to. I mean it really does fall into the "L2P BS" category as I already said mechanics are in favor of ESF, up to the pilot to actually utilize them correctly or pay the price. As the old saying goes " you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink".

As much as I love to farm things in PS2 that fun I have would not be there if my opponents were unable to return fire to me. I'm a dedicated ESF pilot that has nothing to gain from defending Libs other then I don't like uncalled for nerfs. Daltons are not a major cause of ESF deaths as you would lead many to believe, until that changes you are calling out for nerfs on something that doesn't merit the attention.

What is with you and feeling insulted all the time? It is a fact that mechanics are in favor of ESF when engaging libs. At some point players have to take personal responsibility for their performance in a game and not claim things are OP. Just because you pull an ESF doesn't mean you auto win against libs. You have to play to its strengths and if you don't then accept the risk that follow your decisions.

Again... every pilot that agrees with you, which is what you consider making someone competent apparently.

I couldn't agree more. The Dalton is being used to take out ESFs when it is a A2G weapon by design.

Thank you for admitting that the Dalton is effective for anti-air.

In other words you are full of it.

You may address me, but seeing as my skill (or even lack there of) is not the issue why do you insist on trying to make it an issue? If you would bother to read what I write instead of just looking for ways to argue you might get half a clue. I personally get killed by libs very rarely, when I do it is almost never about the skill of the crew it is about luck - or my being dumb. THIS DOES NOT CHANGE ONE LITTLE THING ABOUT THE ISSUE AT HAND. I see Libs chasing ESFs with the Dalton constantly. It is VERY rare that I see a Lib crew be defensive with an ESF. If your experience is different then well I can't help that. I really don't care about your friends agreeing with you I have my own eyeballs.

When have I EVER said that "I" was having problems downing libs? I play almost exclusively in the air and while my stats don't match the gank squad guys, or the rocketpod farmers they speak for the fact that I am a good ESF pilot. Even if I was terrible it wouldn't matter.

Your insult is to ASSUME that I need to "L2P" as though my issue with the Dalton is that "I" feel abused. You are a condescending self-absorbed forum ace and you don't even know it.

OK I will try ONE more time to bring this to some reasonable discussion. Is that possible here?

I asked previously if the Dalton was such an ineffective weapon why anyone would care about it being fixed... I have yet to hear a reasoned answer to this.

You (I think, and hope I am correct) gave one reason which while not persuasive IMO for game developers (why will become clear momentarily) does actually make perfect sense to me. You said because you enjoy using the Dalton against ESFs.

That is a VALID reason for YOU to want it to be this way in the game. You went on to say that you like having weapons that reward skill. ME TOO! Yet since it causes joy for a small minority (according to you) but frustration (being one shot killed by spammed Daltons) for many it is a net negative for overall enjoyment and continued patronage of the game therefore SOE ought to not be persuaded by the joy of the minority. (Please don't just twist this into something it isn't, please try to be reasonable.)

OK so while I am not satisfied with any of the responses to my previous question I will pose another - in an attempt to find reasonable discussion on the subject.

IF:

You (or anyone else) think that the Dalton vs ESF is primarily a skill based engagement and is therefore not just normally a lucky hit situation:

THEN:

I propose that the Dalton's damage against ESFs (perhaps all air, but I'm not sure about this) be reduced from being a 1 shot kill to being 55%.

If the Dalton is a skill based weapon and players like it because it rewards skill then let's have it work that way. Let it reward skill not just persistent dumb luck.

While we're at it, why not lower the dalton's ammo to One because it makes sense with this kind of logic.


Honestly though, the dalton is the high-skill high-reward weapon in when fighting aircraft. If you land your shots, you will kill the enemies very fast. The shredder is more of a reliable weapon with more ammo but less damage. Remove the dalton's 1HK ability will make the shredder way the best option against any vehicles no matter what.

Just no.

You have spent 1.3 hours using a Dalton.
You have 55 total kills with the Dalton
You have 19 vehicle kills with the Dalton

(I'm a full time Liberator Pilot and I have 725 kills with the Dalton which gives me a good sense of how it works, including ESF kills)

Even if I give you the benefit of the doubt and say that all 19 of those were ESF kills (but we know they aren't) you still don't have enough experience with the weapon to be commenting accurately or with enough experience to be calling for nerfs. With the frequency at which you have posted in this thread I actually expected to see much different statistics on your character with the Dalton.

You have no idea how hard it is to hit an aircraft with a Dalton based on your statistics and use of 1.3 total hours. That's not a slight, I'm just presenting statistics from your character.

You have 360 hours in your Mosquito with 5844 kills, so it's no wonder why you're upset about getting hit by a Dalton. Of those 5844 kills, 3489 of them are Rocket Pod kills. So based on what we can all easily see from your stats, 1527 of those are vehicle kills wiht Rocket Pods (most likely armor) and 1962 of those are infantry kills. So you're the average Rocket Pod farming Mossie that gets too close to Liberators sometimes and gets hit in the cockpit with a Dalton round. Now that we all know how you play the game, we understand why you are upset with the Dalton OHK on an ESF.

If you're in an ESF and you get hit by a Dalton round it's user error or luck of the gunner. Once you start hitting ESF's on the regular with the Dalton then you can start calling for nerfs. If it's so easy, and doesn't take any skill, please do show us with proof and maybe you can change our minds on the subject. If you cannot provide us with tangible evidence of why this weapon should be nerfed other than, "I just don't like it", you're going to have a hard time changing anyone's opinion.

Please feel free to check my stats on any of my characters (in my sig). I have nothing to hide.

You must really not know much of the pilot inner circles and how much they bicker. When I claim someone to be competent I do not take into account their preference of game balance, I know plenty of good pilots that do things I detest and we regularly argue but they are still good.

Really getting desperate now huh? You have seen the stats and they show the dalton to be one of the lowest contributors to ESF deaths. Yes people do use Dalton to hunt air, just like people use MBT, Dumbfires, and anything else they can get their hands on. Doesn't mean any of those options are "effective" as you claim daltons to be.

Again I offered you my stream info of which will have plenty of libs being destroyed. If you are so adamant on seeing evidence it is all there for you.

You are arguing as if the lib is some A2A monster ****** and pillaging across auraxis of which it is clearly not. You keep offering your "experiences" of other pilots dying and being chased yet no data supports Libs being as lethal as you claim. That is fantastic that libs are killing pilots near you when you play, maybe you should be looking at what they did wrong rather then solely blame the lib. As Dread explained you have almost no experience with a dalton yet continue to shout balance ideas on a weapon you have only negligible experience with. Until the numbers back up your ridiculous claim of Daltons killing air in large numbers your experience is simply to isolated to take seriously in any balance debate.

Then stop speaking for pilots that got shot down. Obviously if they were as butt hurt as you are they would be here with you complaining about it. When you keep giving us this nonsense of other pilots die around me all the time as evidence of a Dalton being OP it makes you look ridiculous. I see pilots die to countless things in PS2, but my observation alone is not enough to merit a grounds for balance changes as metrics would have to back up my claims. In this case the metrics show you are exaggerating the effectiveness of Daltons vs ESF. When I stated that you should practice more if you are having problems that was towards any readers that shared your complaints not just you Ratzo. So please suck it up some dude and stop being so sensitive towards every comment that were never meant to hurt your feel bads.

I tried to make for reasonable conversation. Instead of talking about the game all you guys can do is say "L2P" or "I'm better than you and I know all the cool kids so my way is right."

First Daltons were completely ineffective... but you can't stand for them to be changed - even if that change makes them better at their proper role.

Second Daltons are a skill based weapon... but you don't want to remove the luck factor.

Have a nice day kids, I hope all your Planetside 2 dreams come true!

I guess you want to keep your lucky kills.

I've gotten a few ESF kills with the Dalton, but I've spent almost NO time in the Dalton... I'm not sure why you bring this up I've already posted all of this before. I can get lucky too... I don't need skill to get ESF Dalton kills I just need to spend a bit of time lobbing Daltons through the air.

That's right I've sat in a Dalton seat for only 1.3 hours and even I can get ESF kills with it... not skill LUCK.

I'll take you word for it but I have used Rocketpods for about 1 hour in 2014. I looked through my stats and I'm not sure where you get these numbers from -but again I really couldn't care less. Even if I was a complete scrub I can still get ESF kills with the dalton. What exactly is your point?

When have "I" ever complained about "me" getting killed by Daltons? That's the problem with your looser L2P argument - I am not complaining about my experience. The Dalton is broken and it makes the Lib a single vehicle solution.

LOL I almost completely agree with you. Notice how you didn't say it had anything to do with skill on the gunner's part. Very rarely however it DOES have to do with skill - and I think THOSE gunners should get rewarded. Therefore since they have skill they should get kills, and those relying on LUCK should not. Therefore 2 Dalton hits to kill an ESF makes perfect sense. The only reason you don't want that is because you know it is an out of balance luck weapon that changes the game.

Really? Is there a rule book somewhere? Are you in charge of that?

LOL I never said it was easy. I said it was about spamming. Any ESF pilot who has seen Libs engage ESFs knows this... You can use a strawman fallacy to make yourself feel smart but I'm not saying it is easy. I am saying it is broken and should work the way it was designed to work.

I did. You have 71.9 DAYS in of playing time in Planetside 2, a game which has been out for 1 year and 9 months. You've spent about 12% of your life since this game launched playing it. That's some serious commitment, or something else...

What I know is that you are part of a highly effective air outfit which is famous for gank squads. I've gone up against you and you seem good. However, bragging about your stats and quoting stats (of whatever source) and saying they are poor when your stats come from a gank squad is pretty funny IMO. *EDIT UPDATE* I have to say that your time with QRY is much lower than your main character. I believe in being fair, even though the only reason I replied was for turnaround. I don't know how your other outfits play.

I on the other hand focus on playing the game, not just flying all over the map looking for people to gank. I've spent many hours since launch protecting small squads as they take territory. That's the game I like to play. You like to go ganking. Have fun, but if you think that has anything to do with how Daltons should work you're just kidding yourself.

Stats, you can see yours here:
http://stats.dasanfall.com/ps2/player/RaTzo

As far as me going 'ganking', you don't know how to read stats or you wouldn't have made a ridiculous statement like that. You also haven't flown with me on any empire to know how I fly. I'm not making assumptions about you, so you shouldn't make assumptions about me. My comments are accurate based on your stats, I didn't insult you, I posted factual information. If you want to turn this into a battle of insults you'll have to do that on your own.

You don't just go around 'ganking' people as the pilot of a Liberator (unless you're killing a hovering Liberator that deserve to die). Getting kills with the Tank Buster is hard, and the most difficult weapon to use in the entire game next to the Dalton (against ESF's). You can't pretend to know what I do based on the outfit I am in, or accuse me of doing things that I just don't do without the facts to back it up.

You still don't understand how difficult it is for a Dalton user to hit an ESF that has more than 3 hours flying time. Sure, you could have gotten several ESF kills with the Dalton and maybe they were luck, maybe they weren't. I'm not going to pretend I know, all I can do is look at your stats and see how you play the game and where your time is spent. I can see how many vehicle vs infantry kills you have with Rocket Pods, and lots of other things from the link above.

As it has been stated, Daltons kill the least amount of ESF's compared to everything else in the game by a wide margin.


Enjoy some videos of what I ACTUALLY do in PS2, unlike what you assume I do:

I think I see the issue here...

He didn't.
So you're actually reading words/meanings that aren't there. No wonder you're still at this "debate".

Alright, i'd like to take a crack at it then.

A few days before the liberator nerf was confirmed, a group of Connery VS decided to mass liberators at any given fight they could show up at, so i hatched a plan to try and kill as many as possible from the ground and show them who's boss.

I gathered one full squad worth of heavy assaults armed with strikers and the Munitions Pouch suit slot, and another squad of 6 medics and 6 engineers to keep us going as long as possible. We got into the fight (if i remember correctly it was on Indar, near Mao Tech plant some 250m or so from the facility seeing how that's the striker's maximum range...) and set up a potential "no fly zone" by covering the area in rockets. The tactic was simple, lock on to a single spotted liberator and shower it with striker rockets, easy right? Things went horribly wrong at an alarming rate, the first two liberators went down very quick, things looked promising but the rest of the libs piloted by FCRW, T42, and JENK were all using a combination of vehicle stealth, flares, composite armor and afterburner. The ones we locked onto either popped their flares and retaliated by area-bombing our group to death, or slowly slid behind the tech plant soon emerging belly-up and shooting us while we tried to jockey into position to even attempt to lock on (and in case you didn't know, in order to lock on with a striker you have to have at least 60% of your target showing to gain a lock).

The worst came when we moved into a better position and tried again, instead of just using the cover to evade our rockets, they just got as close as they could and cluster-bombed us with everything they had, then returned to farming the doorways. We tried these tactics in various places 5 separate times. None of which worked.

As Flag said earlier on page 1:
- Doesn't matter what teamwork we brought to the table, we had no chance.
- Doesn't matter what teamwork we brought to the table, we had no chance.
- Doesn't matter what teamwork we brought to the table, we had no chance.

having flown against, and occasionally besides, this guy, I can tell you from personal experience that he's one of a very few pilots I know with certainty fights as fair as he can, and always bravely. That's coming from a whale pilot, so I know all about being pecked to death by gank squads. Dread is someone I actually look forward to seeing as a challenge that's not beyond my crew and I, and because a thousand outfit mates don't just appear when he starts taking damage.