[BUG] Tomcats or A to A lock-on

yeah but my accuracy's higher, and most importantly, i have ~5x your kph ^^

err... the only weapons which are actually comparable are the Sirius and the NS7 PDW, and we have the same accuracy, i just have 2-4% higher headshot percentage... oh actually the Sirius works too, it also has that stat difference
and the KPH difference is also pretty irrrelvent, considering that you have almost no time in a Galaxy, harrasser or in the Liberator Pilotseat.
all things considered i'm actually the one not running around exploiting OP stuff compared to you...

Terrain can be useless on Indar and Esamir when it comes to Tomcats.
Hossin and Amerish are quite nice.

FIrst off, this isn't a bug. This is a player who sees an unfun game mechanic. A game mechanic that isn't even OP, just not fun for him.

Second off, you mostly concentrate on fleeing a lock-on. Bad idea, the very first thing you need to do when a lock-on aims for you is to get in close. In close you can avoid his lock, nosecannons wield more power than lock-ons and can destroy the other aircraft before the lock-ons get you, if he can even fire them.

Second, A2A lock ons aren't used a lot, I barely ever see them and they get about 380 kills per month total, over all 3 factions. Consider now how many ESF are picked...

The problem everyone describes about A2A lock ons is that it's not fun. The user doesn't find it to have enough power because it takes a long time and the moment someone gets in close they can't use them, the one it's used on doesn't like it because it feels like cheese.

If it were up to me, I would have changed the entire air game, from G2A, flak, A2A, possible flight maneuvers etc. The current one simply has too many glaring issues. I would almost put it higher on my wish list than an LA update, almost.

What does piloting has to do with anything? It doesn't affect your weapon kph. Also, consider I do spend a lot of time in a liberator or esf (pilot)

Kph is directly how much you do, how much is all that you're doing really usefull. Mine amounts to killing lots of people fast. You don't amount to much. here are both sheet so you can compare:
yours: https://www.planetside2.com/players/#!/5428010618030961137/weapons
mine: https://www.planetside2.com/players/#!/5428147970871342881

I mean it's clear as day.

oh, ok, you are really, really cute.
KPH?
really?

mate my stats are jsut superior in any meaningfull way especially considering that weapons like your oh so great 134kph NS7PDW on your NC char have a mere 52kph on your Vanu, which i used for comparision. i guess you can be really proud of yourself that you managed to farm without end on your NC alt.
here is an internetcookie.

I love internet cookies of victory

*sigh*
this is like having to explain basic algebra to a 3 year old.

keep on ...

really funny to watch you guys arguing who is 'better' - almost like 'who has the longer one'

my stats are bad, i know that - and i feel comfortable with it

It is very obvious you dont get what im talking about. Yes if you get in close its harder for them to use, i get that.

Let me break it down because you (by reading your post) seem like you dont spend much time in the air. By the time you get that first indication that you are being locked on, it takes a while for you to stop and look around to see where its coming from (if you dont have engagement radar on). By the time you find out you already got hit by one. Then going in towards the pilot, you get hit by the second. Then all it takes by the time you get to him is for him to finish you with the nose cannon.

Now i know it might sound complex for you, but i ensure you it takes a matter of 10 seconds to do.

ALSO im not just talking about ME, again obviously you cannot read everything. I was also talking about new players going into the game. From personal experience ive seen friends give up BECAUSE OF LOCK ONS.

Let me slow it down again because you might not be able to understand......... I AM NOT JUST TALKING ABOUT ME, I ALSO MEAN NEW PLAYERS COMING INTO THE GAME.

Don't get me wrong if you catch a lock-on before he locks onto you, yes you might have a chance to kill him. AGAIN REMEMBER NEW PLAYERS (there are those two words again) DONT HAVE THE SKILL TO KNOW THAT. If there was a tutorial on what counters what, then hey i couldnt say anything about it......... BUT THERE ISNT. Also i said this in a later post i didnt mean to click bug i really just clicked the whatever popped up because i dont really care about the subject. But what i can say is to some people, things that arent balanced in a game are bugged.

Also with the stat of 380 kills a month i have to laugh at that because that is complete horse crap, and you also said across all three factions. At that point i have to laugh at you. I can tell you personally that Don alfregos scythe squad on connery get more than that in 2 weeks. So please get your facts straight when making a point. Thank you and have a nice day

You don't look at your radar and see the blip appear, twist in their direction and go there? That's what I do. I never joined the Fire Supression band when it was updated so I'm still running with flares, and since I can't compete directly in dogfights I avoid them/surprise them with stealth-frames. This allows me to avoid that first hit and better elude them in battle.
Even so, I find lock-ons the easiest enemy to find.

Usually people give up because of the completely rediculous flight controls and bugs that have become "accepted" and dominate any battle, gank teams that insta-kill anyone who has little experience and top-guns who can go circles around anyone who hasn't done 10 hours of training in the VR with a coach to learn the wonky system. A2A lock-ons are rarely taken, they get about 380 kills over a month (can be seen here: http://ps2oraclestats.com/monthlystats/ ).
A2A lock-ons are not fun to be fighting against, especially the first few times when it feels like you can't even escape regardless what you do. But they are definitely not the main problem as you make them out to be.

At least I try to keep my insults to a minimum, you are just calling me stupid. You are generalising and you are blowing a problem out of propertions. There's around 12 2/3 A2A lock on kills a day. 12 2/3 per day across all servers. How many ESF are taken per day? Is 12 2/3rd deaths by an A2A lock-on really the problem? With so few kills per day, you have to go out of your way to be killed by one.

there is no tutorial at all, ask anyone, the first few tries in ESF are all about not hitting the terrain before you even find your first enemy. So please, stop creating a problem here. Yes, new players won't be able to handle them, but they won't be able to handle anything.

I posted the link (again), see for yourself. Have fun. When you've checked it and seen it, will you deny it? Will you say that it's not true? Will you ignore it? Will you be a good man and tell me that I'm right?

First off with the whole stat thing, you are just looking at the Vanu A2A which is close to averaging 380 kills a month on its own. Second your totally ignoring when i was talking about fighting an A2A pilot. Once you turn around you are already HIT with the first missile. Again once you get in his direction and go towards him your hit with the second. Again by the time you get in a close enough range where your primary isnt missing ever other 5 shot because of spread, he already has the advantage. Again like i said he just has to hit you a couple time with his/her primary before you even have a chance to get him below 25% health.

Now with the new players thing, again i was talking about personal experience. Of course any other random new player will have a tough time with everything. I was mostly talking about my experience with the people i brought into the game. Which i made sure they were decent pilots before i brought them to live fights.

The insults i apologize, i have to admit i was being really harsh. Just repeating yourself over and over till people understand what your saying gets pretty frustrating.

Anyone fielding Fire suppression knows whats coming to them, on the other hand they might be so stubborn and ignorant that they'd rather blame the locking user rather than themselves, the Tomcats are fun, and helps against the already high number of solo liberators that go cleaning the air from ESFs.

380 kills, which is aircraft+pilot, which could include Liberators (1 to 3 man team) and Galaxies (1 to 12) that boost the stats.
If you look at average Uniques, you see that a total of 363 weapons were used effectively (we are a few days later and apparently the A2A missiles were used less or less effectively within that span of days so the amount of Uniques dropped by 20)
Of those 363 weapons, they had an Avg A KPU (Average Aircraft Kill Per Unit) of 2.93, with the Scythe A2A having the highest of 3,12.
The first none-AI Nosecannon (Hailstorm Turbo Laser) has an Avg A KPU of 3,41, but also has a usage of 327 over a month... but since it's of a single faction, it's almost 3x higher than that of the A2A missile pod. This means that the weakest none-AI nosecannon already scores 3x more kills over a month than a dedicated, pure A2A weapon.

Please look up the term "good alpha damage" and then see where I wrote it. It directly says that yes, it's good for that first strike, but it's not a good finisher. I also go on to say that other options are better in the long run, which is why people take those.

You are grossly overstating the range of A2A missile pods, I can't the true range right now but it's much closer than you make it out to be. It's not as if it's a render range weapon.
But you make an excellent point: after firing those first shots he's got an advantage, yet no-one takes the obvious counter of Flares (or uses A2A Missiles that much), which would reduce your hits by 1 or even 2 rockets depending on how long you have between using the flare and your immunity while you approach. Why doesn't anyone take flares if it's this wonderful counter against OP missiles? The moment you get in close you can reverse maneuver/hover fight them into the ground, so why use Fire Suppression rather than Flares?
Because the Lock-ons aren't used that much, that's why. I've already shown you that the worst none-AI nosecannon gets 3x as much kills per month, there are some variances ofcourse and some of the nosecannons (Locust for example) gets lower total kills per month as the A2A missiles, but looking at the Needler for instance you already got 4407 aircraft kills per month, not to mention a bunch of infantry as well... While the dedicated A2A weapon scores a measly 1063,53 of all 3 factions combined. All 3 factions combined still scores 1/4rth of what a single TR Needler can do!

Again I already addressed this. I said that the weapon feels cheasy, which makes it unfun to be playing against. OP has nothing to do with it as it's not OP. It's not fun. And I bet your friends mentioned A2A missiles among other things.

Welcome to my world. But apology accepted.



Edit:
Looking further at the Monthy Vehicle Deaths (one of the tabs or follow the link: http://ps2oraclestats.com/monthly-vehicle-deaths/ ), you can see for yourself the "huge impact" that these things make.
When looking at all 3 factions combined, none of the A2A missiles even show up.
When looking at just a single faction, you see that one A2A missile of one faction manages to scrounge just enough kills to get into the line...
But they simply fall short, 0,64% of the total of ESF killed by the best A2A missile against VS? Even if the next weapon is at 0,64 as well, you would come at a grand total of... 1,28%! Oh wow!
Oh, and the best A2A missiles on the other two factions have 0,66% and 0,88% against NC and TR respectively.

Also, looking over your scenario's... You have a very unfair scenario don't you? Basically you are saying "anyone using A2A missile pods has 100% chance of getting the drop on his enemy".

Well, let's look at the possibilities shall we?
Option 1: A2A has drop on enemy. Gets good alpha damage, if enemy get in close he's got a good chance of getting shot down regardless.
Option 2: they see each other coming. You can hardly keep a good enough distance as your enemy will immediately close the distance and be able to break the lock, especially with Flares, which would give the advantage to the one without A2A missiles as he gets the alpha strike. Without flares they both get the alpha strike, and it depends on the skill of the Nosecannon user to get more damage in, Fire Suppression can almost wipe an entire hit of an A2A missile as well to even the odds. A2A user has probably FS as well.
Option 3: enemy gets the drop on A2A user, has a chance to one-clip him, renders A2A missiles almost useless.

3 options, only 1 has an advantage (they get the drop), but since it's 50/50 who gets the drop on the other, I would think it a non-issue. We haven't even started talking of large-scale fights as well, where multiple ESF engage eachother. While having a Cheasy A2A missile user on your side, a good Nosecannon user can cash out more DPS, and the A2A user will probably be swarmed and ripped apart ASAP because of all the bias.

most people who use tomcats either get killstolen or switch to the nosegun. or they're just terrible in the first place and don't get kills. that doesn't mean that the mechanic isn't flawed. i'm pretty sure a few people in this thread have tried to approach you with this information but you still keep posting these sort of intense essays which rely on a statistics page and assumptions that are likely based on the Miller "air game."

i'm not going to get into a back and forth with you here, but i want you to know that even though it's the internet, it doesn't always weaken your position to allow that others have had valid experiences, or might even know what they're talking about. and again, with statistics you know that by far the biggest killer of air happens to be rocks and trees. a significant portion of rocks and trees success rate is also attributable to bailing and/or attempting to land a burning aircraft after being hit with the many sources of fire that attempt to score "last hits." it's not that rocks and trees are vastly superior to A2A missiles, it's mainly that A2A missiles are not a very effective "last hit" weapon.

Now you are right, they did tell me that their experiences differed from mine. But they used mostly to indicate why Tomcats don't let you learn something in the air-game, which is simply not true.
Yes, these statistics are flawed, many people will ram the ground, tree's etc while escaping or because they bailed. But does that mean that this constantly happens with Tomcats? The times I've used it, I usually managed to get the kill. I haven't seen that many people bail from Tomcats as they have the option to make them ram the environment, always giving you that sense that there is a chance to get away. Not to mention that you usually skip the burning part and go for a kill right away when you do hit them.

So this is where we stand: A2A missiles might be OP despite my experiences, but none of the others displayed the argument of "I always ram the ground when being shot by A2A missiles". Just that they were killed by the A2A missiles. I would have expected them to come up with this argument had their experiences been just that, but they didn't, so it is less likely.
Another thing we could look at is other lock-ons, they would display the same characteristics, right? G2A missile launchers would even have more trouble finishing off aircraft due to the fact that anyone bailing would force the missile into the ground instantly... Which as I'm looking at it right now is actually true, all ground-based lock-ons score much worse (additionally I just see that the Oracle of Death site has some faults, if you look at the Avg A KPH you can see that the VS A2A lock on scores 35 aircraft kills per hour, while it should have 12 per day if the rest would be correct)
The other option is that they aren't OP, as I think, but simply immensely not-fun due to the chease it feels like, and the low skill ceiling that can be reached.

Regardless, as I've said before, I'm not against changing the missiles themselves, as long as it's an actual change and not a nerf. Make it so pilots can avoid the lock, or give the rockets a lower speed so it slowly catches up to fleeing members, who get more time to hide behind terrain, allow people to shoot the missiles out of the air etc. Just give it other advantages while you are at it, such as firing two at a time, a semi-lock halway before a full-lock where the missile will have less agility when following, dispense with the whole "lock on" thing and make it a Hornet+Coyote Hybrid, you fire one missile straight which follows your crosshair, but will instantly lock on and hit aircraft that get close to the missile etc. Theres a ton of possibilities that will give it both more skill to use and allow the skillful ESF pilot to avoid the damage.

I am legitimately curious as to why multiple threads...time and time again are always present in regards to the A2AM throughout reddit and the main forums...about ppl such as OP complaining about removing equipment that has been long since placed in the game.

Guess what. The majority of planetside players do not do not see your point of view as being valid. You complain about lock ons yet you choose to still run your ESF with nano repair and fire suppression instead of Flares and stealth.

You chose not to adapt to the changes. For A2A I run my rotary with coyotes and I use flares and stealth because you know what? People on the other factions have coyotes too...go figure...funny thing is that they have nano repair and fire suppression so I end up killing them before I reach half health.

Tomcats are easy to avoid when you know how. Tomcat users will usually fly with racer chasis so running isn't a viable option, even though the range isn't really that long unless you/they invest hundreds of certs into the range function. Fly perpendicular to them and they can't keep a lock because it's not "fire and forget" (anymore), they also nerfed the cone in which the lock can be sustained so its easy to break a lock whether you have cover or not just by flying out of their vision. Get in close and A2A air users generally die quickly enough. The basic idea is to not be intimidated by them and then they have less of a drop on you.

Besides, having a tomcat loadout makes you such a niche player on the field. It makes you pretty useless in the sky if there's no enemy air. A waste of resources if you ask me. Much more effective to run the radar blocker to extend lockon times and get in their face, they wont be able to fire a shot off on you.

I'm not sure you realize...

But the flares are designed for you to turn around and engage the ESF in combat, not for you to escape.

If you can't destroy the opposing ESF with your nosegun before he can fire three more lock on missiles that's on you, not the lock on missiles.

Hell, turn around and give 'em a face full of Coyotes; that'll teach em.

That said, the flare could be reduced BY 5 seconds... making it 7 seconds or even 10 seconds re-use is utterly and completely ridiculous, it'll make all lock ons useless. It almost takes that long to engage a lock and for a missile to reach you.

LOL

So basically A2AM would be utterly useless if every time they can lock you're able to flare.....

You know how to fight A2Am?

GET IN THEIR FACE.

They're useless in a hover duel. Completely useless.