I've been asking for some HMGs instead of our awful shotguns for ages now.. but its odd, no matter how often people scream that our shotgun MAXs are OP they will do anything they can to stop us from getting rid of them.. its almost like they know they are lying and that shotguns, a gun best used on a quick moving highly mobile class, is a complete waste on a low mobility slow as hell class. Maybe if they were all automatic (not faster shooting just you could hold down the button to keep firing for them all instead of needing to click for each shot which ruins aim) and had double the clip size as standard they'd work, but that wont happen as people never stop whining about them as they are so just give us damn HMGs instead Let shotguns on MAXs become one of those things people mention in a year and get the answer "what? are you serious? nah you're joking nobody would be dumb enough to think shotguns are good on a MAX that never happened".
I've posted on numerous threads regarding this, so I'll post it again here. I fully support nerfing the NC MAX, by removing the two shotguns it now has per hand and give them half a carbine per arm, as per VS and TR MAX.
Which probaply won't happen because of the change being too large, in which case I fully support extending the range and magazine capacity of NC MAX shotguns considerably combined with a considerable nerf to CQC damage.
VR isn't actually game play.....doesn't account for what every player in the game does...move and lag. Kay thanks.... Alpha Strike weapons have always been...and will always be the best weapons for MMO games due to latency and hit detection.
Orrrr.....the people who are complaining about them being OP are feeble minded forumsiders and the people arguing for you to keep them actually understand how good they are and don't want you to water down the differences between the empires any more? Let me explain something...there are people on the forums who have made entire threads talking about how Standard VS colors are OP....really I'm serious....of all the problems in the game. Someone had decided that they will make an issue over the color of an empire's armor. *facepalm* If that doesn't tell you a little something about some of the intelligence levels of the people who complain on the forums...you might be one of them. Do yourself a favor....honestly. Go to http://ps2oraclestats.com/ and look up all the different Max AI units and compare them. You will find that the numbers actually show the NC AI max preforms on par with the other two empires in all categories other than the Mattock..which actually OUT PREFORMS all other empire's AI guns by A LOT! Which means as a whole...they are slightly better. Shotguns on a MAX? Yea well in bases and point locations..having a unit with 10 times the HP of every other infantry unit and resistance to small arms fire...sounds like a pretty good platform for a close quarters combat unit with shotguns. Because having long range doesn't really help you...in most long range situations...you are going to get run over by vehicles...killed by aircraft...or shot by 20 infantry you can't fight back against.
Regardless, we'd like the option to NOT get **** on because you're more than 5-10m away. Shotgun MAXes seem to make everyone unhappy; most of us HATE being stuck with them, and clearly lots of people hate being killed by them. Just let me strap 2 of the new NC6A GODSAWs to the arms, and I'll be happy.
The VR zone is an accurate control scenario for which to measure and compare AI weapons, less so for AV. If you kill a VR engineer with 8 body shots in VR using weapon X, it will also kill an engineer in game with 8 body shots. So while no the situation is not always 100% the same, the fact remains that it's a good way to measure and compare. As for lag and movement, both weapons will face these issues in game and may suffer from them depending on your internet connection and that of your opponent. For what it is this game does a fairly good job most times at keeping lag in check.
VR mobs have no nanoweave armor, they aren't subject to the dual side lag/packet loss other players are. They have no cover and do not move toward cover nor do they fight back. A VR mob is equivalent to a BR1 standing still in a fight. Actually High damage alpha strike weapons are beneficial on client side hit detection games. It isn't the same advantage given to lower damage sustained fire weapons. The player rounds the corner...I have a gun that can oneshot him...I hit him...he dies he has no time to react. This is the reason why it feel like you have to use an entire clip to kill someone well you seem to die in only a second or less when someone else shoots you. Having to hold accurate fire longer is a detriment when people are rubber banding...or skipping. A lower damage weapon means when he roundst he corner he can see you...take some fire and get back around the corner( Or has a chance to) It is the same reason most snipers prefer the OHK sniper rifles...having to shoot a guy 3 times with a sniper rifle only gives them time to react. In client side they will die before they even realize they got hit with the OHK weapon. The Semiauto doesn't award the same amount of effectiveness. Same concept slightly different scenario.
So while the rest will have half a carbine in each arm, you'll have two LMGs? And the ones with the highest alpha in the game too? What happened to having weapons similar to the other factions? An average accuracy on live servers is 25%. The 8 shots on the VR suddenly become 32 on live servers. Not sure what is there to compare on the VR in your schenario. All weapons in the same tier will kill a target at the exact same amount of bullets, assuming 100% accuracy on VR.
Xasapis, that wasn't meant as a literal statement. Anything but shotguns; I picked the NC6A GODSAW as my example since it'll be getting a small mag soon of 65, and has a very, very low ROF. Something with range is really what we're looking for.
Well, I would use the VR to test recoil patterns and perhaps damage degradation and accuracy at range. The bullets needed for a kill is a fixed number and doesn't need VR confirmation.
I'll start off with saying that VR reference works very well for the whole point that I originally made with it. The TR max using dual Mercy, killing the farthest non-heavy dummy at on the VR range will kill in 8 shots using 8 rounds per mag. That's adding in all the recoil and misses so you've got a 50% hit there, and 42 rounds per Mercy remaining. (With good leading skill a player should be able to keep close enough to that in world, personally I haven't had hit detection issues since a few months after beta.) Now looking at the NC max with Dual Mattocks taking about 2 hits to kill at that range, 6 rounds a mag each or 10 if you invest 500 extra certs per for extended mags, plus another 150 certs for slugs to reach the end of the VR range. Here lies the problem though, the cone of fire is so wide and so randomly generated from the get go that you could fire all 20 rounds from two Mattocks with extended mags and maybe hit a target once if they're standing still, sometimes not at all. It doesn't matter how slow you fire, it's just not reasonably comparable. Even in lag conditions and other problems that you mention, the fact remains that the NC max will only fall exponentially farther behind due to its small magazines and random fire pattern. I would say at this point I've established that NC AI maxes have very little to no range capability by comparison to the other factions. The common argument at this point is that NC AI is stronger in CQC because it can kill infantry faster but I would argue this is not exactly true. As I stated in an earlier post I was able to kill a target in about 1 second with the full length of the VR range between where accuracy isn't at it's best. What do you think happens as targets get closer, they get easier to hit and not only that, they take more damage per round. In the end TTKs end up being almost equal in close range except the NC max has significantly less ammo per mag and in total combined with longer reloads and a very limited range without slugs. Then with slugs the accuracy drops significantly and so does the damage per round while the ammo count remains the same. There are problems with NC max's and AI, even if it's hard for some to believe. They lack the ability to keep up a sustained fire and the versatility in range that the other factions have. This is a real shortcoming in many situations and something I and other (while not all) feel very strongly about in regards that it needs fixing and is long overdue.
For those that have to deal with both the NC MAXes and the non NC MAXes, I can say that as a heavy you can consistently fire a rocket at a TR/VS MAX (and may die or not at that point), where with the NC MAX you lack that luxury.
PURE SPECULATION. Well it may be well worded you have simply...made up all of it. It is all straight from your perceived believes about it. WE have an actual resource of information that will not only compare the weapons you are trying to 'make up stats' for but it will actually show you how well they have done in the last 30 days...and the Mattock out preforms ALL OTHER AI MAXs in terms of KPU and KPH.... ( HAD A SS of the Oracle of death stats but the link isn't working. Go look it up yourself. Some days the Mattock ends up with double the KPH/KPU stats than the other AIs) TTK is not equal or anywhere really close to it in actual combat. The ability to quickly remove the threat of enemys that are pouring fire at you is superior to being able to engage them further out. A heavy at 25m will do more damage to a TR/VS max than that max can send back his way. The TR/VS MAX units are by no means more effective at range then carbines/ARs/LMGs Your opinion that Sustained fire is a huge problem is but an opinion, your AI MAX's have a higher than average KPU/KPU than the other fractions. If you have ever been in a biolab fight...make some simple observations. When a TR/VS MAX enters a room most people shoot at them...when an NC AI max enters the room most people flee for cover first...that is far better result then sustained fire can offer.
If you want NC maxes more in range they should add a smart choke option, you can choose this instead of extended mags. The smart choke gives a tighter pellet spread while in a trade for a lower rate of fire. And yes maybe if you look really into the sustained fire of the max its quitte low maybe add about 4-5 shells. But in my opinion a max is just deadly in things a max is mostly just used for (for clearing points or rooms as example) and in my opinion a NC max is the best for that.
Are you considering the significantly higher pull rate of VS/TR when you say all this? You're forgetting that higher pull rates dilutes numbers. I haven't seen NC pull MAX units in comparable numbers to TR/VS in a long time and what it boils down to is this creates more "hours" and more "spread" of the kill stats for those two. What you're looking at is diluted stats not facts. If NC pulls 10 maxes in 48 enemy pop fight and TR pulls 20 maxes in a 48 enemy pop fight, who will have a higher KPU?
First of all, pulling a MAX more often does not give you..."Diluted results" it gives you better and more accurate information. KPU means KILL PER UNIT. Nothing is diluted by numbers...if you go by hours played the NC max is indeed played less...but has a MUCH higher KPU...for example the KPU of a Mattock is roughly 9 (8.92 for the left and 8.85 for the right) Among the TR and VS AI max units the next closest of the AI's is Nebular Left arm at 7.71. When you look at the Quasar for example...the arm that has larger play hours actually has a HIGHER KPU....than the one that is use less *By a healthy amount actually* What this all means...really is that as a unit the NC MAX's are just as effective or in the case of the Mattock...more effective than the other empire's AI MAX units. I can tell you...from my perspective as a VS I see just as many NC MAX's as I do TRs. This simply comes down to a "Greener Grass" syndrome in which people think the other empires have better stuff cuz it's different. In early beta...there was a NS MAX weapon, the Flamethrowers. They reallly destroyed infantry...it murdered everything but Vehicles. Even other max units fell before them. But they were removed because they were a bit buggy and ...honestly a little BS because they blinded people and basically out preformed the NC shotties. Everyone used them...no one cared about long range anything. Everyone liked the flamethrowers.
You completely missed the point, the point I was making is that per unit due to numbers the TR/VS get less kills due to the numbers spreading those kills across more MAX units. The more of something you have to split up into an average the lower that average becomes. It's already been shown that the NC max is being pulled far less than the other factions, additionally that those that do pull it are pulling it at higher BR (more certed units.) What this means is that the majority of players pulling NC AI are more experienced and more fully certed players. Considering these factors you should see higher average K/D which is also spread across a smaller population of MAX units. Now compare this to TR/VS where you have a full spread of BR users, low and high resulting in a full jumble of K/D due to experience and certification differences spread out across a much higher amount of MAX units pulled. The result is a lower average, as you may know the more kills/deaths you have the harder it is to increase your ratio, the same applies here.
You're also spreading X amount of kills over A vs B amount of Maxes, the supply lives while endless does not mean that t he supply of kills per potential battle are not due to spawn huddling or moving on to next defensive position etc. This also results in lower KPU.
None of the stats show what youa re saying to be true. The Average BR of the NC max user is on par with the other empires. Regardless of all of your speculation, the fact remains they end up with more kills on average. How often they are pulled doesnt' matter. The fact that they can achieve a higher rate of KPU proves they are not the **** things that have been being argued about. Nor does it tell you how many certs you have pressed into the gun...you are simply making an assumption. I'm BR 100 yet only have certs on my Blueshifts......well my NC is BR 15 and have no certs in the Scattercannons...and when I pull my Scattermax I average more kills per death.
