Stats stats stats and stats ! NC hardmode version 2

You know what, after reading about all these NC MAX UP posts I start to wonder if am I the only player in the entire game having fun/being effective on my 2xscatter alt?

Ofc ZOE is hands down better but I try to use my NC MAX in tight spaces and I use charge over shield to close the distance and instagib infantry or run away to safety and...I'm racking up quite a few kills, most of the time.

You're not wrong, I don't think anyone is disagreeing that you are playing to its strengths. And by charging to overcome the range issues is also pretty smart.

Its disingenuous of anyone to try to claim that the factions' MAXes are not at the very least going to cause headaches for the other infantry classes. You turn a corner into a MAX of any faction and you haven't preped a C4 or a RL already with a buddy to back you up? You're toast.

But let me ask you this, how often does the NC MAX find itself stretching past the point where their medics and engineers can help them, getting caught in weapon ineffective ranges (sometimes within buildings) so they can't suppress let alone eliminate a threat, and by closing that distance to instagib infantry do you get smoked by explosives and few rounds of the more common ammunition flying about - in comparison to the other faction MAXes? Might the answer to these questions highlight a vacuum of capability that opponents can seize upon with their own strengths to a significant degree?

Any MAX can damn near instagib infantry, and the VS and TR can do it more than once or twice per mag, and are still capable of killing infantry farther than 10-15m away. Being able to blap infantry instantaneously within 5m is not a fair trade for a complete lack of staying power and any kind of teeth at midrange. Under absolutely perfect conditions (no missed shots, point blank range, wielding extended mag Grinders), an NC MAX can kill six infantry per magazine. Realistically, we're looking at 2-3, followed by the longest reload of the MAXes. If the target is farther than are farther than 10m, killing one infantry unit involved expending all or most of the magazine.

You might get a "quite a few kills" against infantry "most of the time," but that doesn't make the NC MAX good. Camping the doorway to a point will get anybody "quite a few kills" against infantry. Breaking that camp is as easy as sending in two or three infantry units, which the NC MAX, unlike the TR or VS, has a much harder time of dealing with, or sending in an enemy MAX, which the NC MAX simply can't deal with.

As a whole, we are worse at anti-infantry work than the other MAXes, but we are also considerably worse at anti-MAX fighting, for the same exact reasons.

There is nothing the NC MAX does any better than the other MAXes, and a lot that it does worse. Hugely imbalanced, and almost entirely thanks to the choice of weapons its equipped with. The devs either need to completely change their approach to shotgun weaponry, or give us something other than shotguns, because we are hugely gimped by being forced to use them in all situations.

16k effective HP with Kinetic 5? I thought it was closer to 13k.

500(slugs) * .875 = 437.5 = 62.5 damage done. 2,000 / 62.5 = 32 hits. 32 *500 = 16,000.

Damn, it is 16,000 for small arms at KA5.

My point is that people paint this picture of NC MAX being COMPLETELY useless and 100% redundant. It might be weaker but people like to throw the words "useless" and "garbage" far too often.

We can all look at the data and debate it all day, but I've been playing FPS games for a long time and my honest opinion is NC feels underpowered. For every piece of data I can cite, someone else could cite another piece of data that would show NC in a different light (that totally rhymed). However, based on my experience, they are the weakest of the 3, for a variety of reasons, I won't get into them, but they are without a doubt the weakest.

Unfortunately, I don't think the stats are so compelling as to require the devs to change things. NC will just have to languish as the weakest -- it's got to be someone, and in this game it's the NC.

It's the lack of versatility that most hate and complain about. Shotguns just are not a weapon that can be used in anything but what they are made for.

It's like comparing a Swiss Army Knife to a Utility Knife. A utility knife can do a lot of work but simply can't do what a Swiss army knife can. If you try to use a utility knife for more than just cutting then it'll break while a Swiss army knife can do damn near anything you want it to if it has the gadget and the blade in a Swiss army knife can be damn good at cutting as well.

PS1 had 3 firing modes for NC MAXes for this very reason. So that they could be used in more than one role if and when the need came.

really getting better helps out in making cert costs for certain weapons to get cheaper? thats news to me. where in the game does it occur that when i nail my usual 3-5 K/D on my NC or my VS character that i get a message saying because of my excellent combat prowess the cert costs to acquire new weapons has been reduced? show me.i appreciate your advice, but its of no use to me. ive got extensive FPS experience dating back to the original Doom on PC.

also you still have not addressed the issue that NC players are not whining just because they lose but because of obvious imbalances such as cert costs to weapons. alot of the arsenal requires 1,000 certs for decent weapons. VS have great weapons already available at 250 certs which a good player can get in 2 days or 3 if they dont have the time to sit on the computer. your average joe VS guy can probably do it in a week. justify to me how player skill for your average NC player must be up to your standards to pay 4 times the cost your empire does to acquire decent weapons.

The problem with this analogy is that the shotguns aren't even good at what they do (or rather, what they try to do). In fact, they're outperformed by every other max weapon, even at point blank, after thousands of certs are invested into them.

I know, I was the one that did a mass of VR tests with all of stock MAX AI weapons showing how shotguns are not up to par even in perfect conditions.

Though it still isn't that bad of an analogy. Utility knives cut like a dream if used right but dull fast, can't be sharpened, rust like nothing, and breaks if held wrong. A pocket knife, though not nearly as sharp without a lot of work, will not break unless you want it to and can last for years with or without care.

Shotguns need to be used right or they will fail to work. HMGs, though lacking in pure raw power, can be put to work anywhere and be fine.

Also shotguns don't stack very well with teamwork while HMGs do. You can only fit so many bodies in an area before they start doing more harm than good. Shotguns have a much smaller area they have to work with, HMGs have entire rooms to work with.

Yeah it's a big old leap, makes KA5 very effective (at least until someone C4s you ).

I don't think they do, really.

It is just that the NC AI MAX isn't that great now.

It'll still kill stuff (especially infantry), but it only does that 0.3 seconds quicker at 0-5m and slower everywhere else.

It now struggles (and by struggles I means gives away an entire 4 second reload) in many MAX vs MAX situations (at 0m, at 8m+ it will always lose).




So basically the NC AI MAX is marginally (0.3 seconds) better vs infantry at 0-5m and worse everywhere else - that doesn't mean it can't kill stuff it just means it's pants compared to the TR and especially VS ZOE option.

Bear in mind, for example, that dual Blueshifts still give a sub 1 second infantry TTK (without ZOE active), yet have a MUCH larger effective range than any NC MAX AI weapon.

No, getting better means you won't need expensive weapons in the first place. If you get better you will be just fine until you can afford whatever it is you want. And a lot of default (and even the 250 cert) weapons for all three factions are really good so I don't see why you think you need all of these 1000 cert items, other than things like MAX weapons or launchers. Most of the expensive weapons are overrated.

Most NC aren't whining about weapon prices either. They are mostly whining about everything being more OP than their weapons, which is silly.

No, that would make the ZOE MAX an easy kill if you take away the mobility but keep the extra damage it takes. LOL No one in their right mind would use ZOE in that situation. If they are going to nerf the ZOE, they should take away a lot of the damage bonus or increase the damage taken.

Want to know what most people on this game seem to believe? "Nerfing all of the other two factions' stuff into the ground will make me a better player!" Yes, people really seem to believe that on here.

Keep in mind that VS was waaaay behind TR too before the change and we are supposedly the most OP faction in the game. If I remember correctly, NC was ahead of us a couple of times as well during all of that. Also, a lot of people were 4th factioning during that entire thing. So yeah, using WDS as "proof" of a faction being inferior is silly because it doesn't really prove anything.

Its funny how you guys always change the circumstances. You say an NC MAX can't kill a ZOE without reloading and I point out that they can, so then you change it to "Oh I mean with KA5 MAXed out!" LOL And we have been over this KA5 thing before. Most people don't use it. They use FA5 because it is cheaper and more useful against the most common way that MAXes die.... explosives. Like I said before, if you use FA5 then you don't know what you're doing as a MAX. Only a small amount of your deaths are going to be to scats and grinders but you will get hit with a lot of explosions so the smart people use FA5.
So basically, your argument is that the ZOE is better but only under certain circumstances. Sounds like everything else in the game.

Whats silly is your response. You ignore the obvious imbalance that is the cert cost for weapons and still continue with your "get better" stance. You must think players want to get good, then be content using the same weapon everyday. That is not the case. Players enjoy diversity in their weaponry. Thats how it is in the real world. Once again explain how "getting better" justifies NC players working more for aftermarket weapons while VS work less. At least you acknowledge our MAX costs. But your conceited attitude clouds your vision. Im sure someone who probably worked 14hrs straight (like myself) would love to hear how you need to get good and deal with it your empire is treated unfairly.

As the person who was keeping track of WDS scores for about two thirds of the event, I would like to make a few statements. I don't like it when people make erroneous and/or untruthful statements when the data is right there to look at. I'm not singling you out or anything, there are plenty of people who have done so. However, I want to take this moment to generalize the results (since I don't think this warrants a new topic and your post reminded me that I wanted to do this sometime).

Some tidbits regarding the NC
- The winner for any particular week was determined by summing up all of each faction's score over all servers and then comparing each faction's total score. Out of six weeks, the NC did not win any.
- Out of the four weeks I got to analyze (3 through 6), only one NC server finished first in any one-week scoring period (Cobalt Week 4).
- On any server, the NC had stiff competition in at least one other faction for second or first place for the entirety of the event. There was no server where the NC were clearly ahead. A complete breakdown would have to go on a week-to-week basis, but it could be done. I'm too lazy, but I'll do it upon request.

About the scoring changes that happened during Week 5
- The new mechanics greatly increased scoring rates across the board. The VS benefited the most from the changes, while the NC saw slightly bigger gains than the TR. However, what this meant was that while the TR lost the last two weeks of the event and the VS catapulted ahead, the NC could not bridge the humongous gap in overall score made by the previous weeks and ended up losing by considerable margins.
- The large boost to VS scores over the last two weeks may have stemmed from the fact that the TR mistakenly won Week 5. This error definitely affected the handing out of the 3-day XP boosts, but it may also have affected the +50% scoring boost that was supposed to be given to the second and third-place factions in order to catch up. This is the only explanation that I can think of that explains the dramatic increase in VS scoring rates other than the faction suddenly turning on godmode and wrecking face [insert ZOE joke here].

What I don't understand is why you would want to pay more certs for an inferior weapon. I've been using my orion the entire time I have played and I don't want anything else. The default weapons are fine. In fact they are better than most of the expensive ones with some exceptions. Also, it doesn't take that long to get 1000 certs if you are that determined to buy something pricey. Do you expect everything to be cheap in a free to play game? Seriously? How do you think SOE is going to make any money from PS2 if they do that?

Maybe NC didn't win any weeks because of their self-defeating attitude? Maybe too many of them decided to 4th faction with TR because they didn't believe they had a chance to win from the start? Like several of us have pointed out before, there are usually a lot of different reasons why a problem can exist but you guys seem dead set on focusing only on one possibility. You want to believe that NC is inferior in every way to the other factions because that makes you feel better about not doing as well. That is what I think.

I play NC MAX quite a bit. In MAX duels against non-ZOE MAXs I can still make do by getting in point blank and land most of my pellets as headshots to win. The reload is what kills you if you fail to one-clip them. Against ZOE you aim for the body and pray, the head strafes fast and missing once or twice is too likely.

My balance suggestion is to make NC AI 3 pellets per shot instead of 6 (same damage characteristics, smaller spread, faster reload), increase the clip size and ammo reserves by triple, make all weapons auto to prevent RSI. Result: no instagibbing infantry unless you HS with all pellets point blank, but 2 double shots will kill/3 with NW/more with heavy shield up. NC wins MAX duels within 10 meters, loses outside of it due to damage drop, but health of the winner will be low even at point blank.

My biggest beef with NC MAX is that none of our AV can hit a harasser reasonably due to very slow projectiles. Falcon speed should be much higher, it's a bit too far behind the Fracture.

good one