Tree Harvesting & You! (Landmark)

I think it's necessary to point out that the wording of the poll options creates a bias for the first option. The first option, "defeating monotony" sounds very positive and fun, while the others sound like changes to mechanics. Of course most people will choose to "defeat monotony" rather than "improve progression." This poll wording simply ensures that you get the answer you're looking for.

I'm also unsure how a new UI and random rewards defeat the monotony. It sounds a bit like you're trying to convince us that this flashy slot machine is much more fun than the one we have now.

Making resource gathering fun is always difficult. But seeing as this is a core element of the game, unlike RPG's where it's a side piece at best, I think it needs to be a lot more than it is now. I'd like to see resource gathering require a lot more exploration, and I'd like to see the other activities (crafting and building) to be less dependent on random drop resources for forward progression. Someone above mentioned having the random materials be required for "lateral progression." This sounds like a better strategy for a sandbox game than the current model which borrows from RPG mechanics.

Back to the OP though, the problem with harvesting trees at the moment is it amounts to standing in one spot, holding your LMB down for 30 seconds to a minute, and then running 4 steps to the next spot. Every 10 minutes you check your inventory to see if you have enough burled wood. As it is implemented currently it will not be long before scripts appear that will completely automate the process. We all know what that leads to.

Adding more axes, progression and random drops isn't going to make this more interesting. I'm still looking for burled wood, and getting a lot of other random stuff with it isn't going to make it more fun.

The player should have to do something different in order to get the 'rare' materials. That could include:

• traveling across islands/biomes, into tunnels, the bottom of lakes etc
• using different tools
• processing the materials differently
• applying some player based skill or knowledge
• working in a team or cooperating with players or npc

As an example:
I need [insert tier 5 wood name here]. Applying my explorer expertise (or looking on the interwebs) I know that this wood comes from trees that look like X. I've seen a lot of them in the snowy areas, so I'll head there. I also know that the younger trees provide different wood from the older ones, so I focus on chopping the small trees down. After 4 or 5 minutes of chopping, I have enough wood. Next I take this wood to a crafting station, where I mix it with some other resource (fermented goblin's blood, fairy toenails and peanut brittle) which I had previously collected on my explorations. Now I have the wood I need to craft a couple of pickaxes.

Note in the above, the act of chopping the trees took very little time. Most of the time and energy is spent in finding the trees and other materials, not in harvesting them or processing them.

Sorry to pick you out mate, but your post is a classic example of what I'm hoping this game can avoid.

Chopping wood for an hour is not fun. It's not a game. It's work. Achievements, progression, random boosters don't make the game more fun. They only make them slightly less tiresome.

In another style of game, where the focus is on 'roleplaying' and not exploring and building, this is the expectation for resource gathering for elite items. I hope that we can find something more fun for a game that is focused on crafting and exploring rather than leveling, story development and combat.

I think this is the best description of what NEEDS to happen. The act of finding the correct materials is a much better incentive then grinding. There was a post earlier about making forests more dense, making it more difficult to track down the right tree or plant. I think that's a good place to start

I agree chopping wood atm is not fun. But if we have to do it, I want to see something that rewards me for being the one who is doing it all day. If I've been harvesting / crafting stuff for a year, I would like to see some type of stat advantage over someone who has only been playing a week and has bought the same tools I'm using. Equipment wise we would be the same, but because I've invested my time in doing the actual work I think it would be fair to have a slight advantage to skills.

Also I like your previous post of finding rare plants and such that you have to look for, but I think this works for a lot of items that do not have random stats, because if you do all of this running around and don't get a roll on the crafted item then it's all about finding the rare items again. Which after several runs will get as boring as the current chopping of wood. Also hopefully the items you have to find would have a truly random spawn and it's an actual hunt...not look up locations on the web and then find folks camping the spawn areas. If it's for a need to have item, then everyone is going to be after it. So there has to be enough for everyone or so random that it keeps folks spread out looking.

This idea of finding the right tree or plant leans more towards recipe crafting or rare harvesting. But even with this type of change there will always be some form of grinding. Unless these rare plants are heirloom or no-trade, once a broker / market system is active, someone will be harvesting them just to place up for sale for those folks that do not wish to go island hopping or rare searching to gather the resources. As well as the plain raw wood from trees that is needed to build wooden structures. Millions of units of wood will be harvested and used or sold as people require it to build structures just like the other raw materials.

So making a change so that specific trees or plants are needed (which is a good idea) only affects one area of the tree harvesting. The ones who need tons of raw wood would not benefit. Nor the ones who decide that they will make their money by harvesting trees.

With the current system, harvesting rare wood will net you an abundance of raw wood in which you would store, give away, sell or just delete if the market is flooded. And it looks like it would be.

Maybe if the recipes were redesigned so that items need rare harvest that you go adventure and find or stumble across and the raw material needed to build structures was lowered then we can find a balanced solution so the only reason you would spend more than thirty minutes to an hour in the forest chopping down trees would be if you choose to.

Some nice ideas, and well presented. I'm more of a fan of something like this. I just think tree chopping has to be more interactive than it currently is right now.

Where I can agree with some of the points that Voidlust made and his execution of presenting his ideas is very good. I must claim that I find the harvesting method itself silly, to say the least.

Issues with Harvesting Trees:
1) Obviously boring
2) Minimal to no social interaction (if you don’t count competing for a resource a social interaction)
3) At current state, laughable, when compared to what the game is capable of doing
4) In general, I don’t want to do it

Proposals

Just as Voidlust stated, trees should be classified into size in relation to how you harvest them, how quickly you can harvest them, and how many people are capable of harvesting them. Instead of the small to extra large sizing lets use a slightly more exacting scale. An A, B, and C sized tree. This goes off of the measurement of DBH (diameter breast height) of the trunk of the tree. “A” tree under 12 inches DBH, B tree 24 inches DBH and lower, C tree above 24 inches DBH. The classification can be more complicated than that but for our purposes that’s really all we need. So with these sizes in mind obviously each size should have a different method in which a person or persons can use to harvest the resource from a tree.

Examples: A sized tree is easily harvested with an axe by one player. B sized tree could be harvested by one person, as it is larger it would take more time but produce more resource.

This is where I propose adding new tools, what about a one man or two man saw? I’m not talking about a chain saw but there are two man saws that can be used by one person, or if two people are present they both can use it, in turn, increasing progress.

Now we come to a “C” tree (larger than 24 inches) which would have the greatest resource yield. Adding to the game a cross cut, a saw that must be operated with two players, one on each end, this would be how two players would go about cutting down this tree in a timely manner. As an individual with just an axe trying to chop down a C tree, the process would be so time consuming that it would make more sense to harvest A or B trees.

Steps to Falling a Tree

The size of the tree would affect the falling method.

[Taken from my previous post] When you’re falling a tree there are two basic cuts (remember we’re keeping this simple), face cut and back cut. The face cut is the small wedge in the front of the tree that you knock out, ultimately determining where the tree is going to fall. The back cut is what releases the tree and allows it to hinge off of the holding wood that you have left in between the face cut and back cut.

“A” tree as it is very small would not require a face cut, just a back cut. It then could be pushed over by the player (standing behind the tree) by pressing a directional key. Making it easy for the player to control which direction the tree falls.

“B” Tree, this tree is much larger. The player wouldn’t be able to push the tree over with only a back cut. So the player would put in a face cut and back cut. This could be done single player or with a friend, with an axe or a one or two man saw. The tree would then fall once the back cut reached a certain point.

“C” Tree, larger than 24 inch DBH (big tree). This sized tree would be recommended to be taken on by two players and a cross-cut saw to do the face cut and back cut.

At this point little to no resource has actually been harvested.

Where the Real Wood Harvesting Starts

Now that we have a fallen tree...

[Taken from my previous post] One of the most important parts of harvesting a tree shouldn’t be falling the tree itself, it should actually be bucking the tree (bucking is a reference to cutting a tree that is on the ground, no longer free standing) once it’s on the ground, as far as obtaining resources from it. With that in mind, the act of cutting down the tree isn’t what should give you resource, it’s should be gathered from the fallen tree.

Just as was stated prior the classification of the tree will change how one harvests it on the ground and the resource yield.

“A” tree, easily done with single player and axe.

“B” tree, done with single player but better with two, axe or 1-2 man saw.

“C” tree, should be done by 2 players, using cross cut saw.

This harvesting method would give the player more control and more feeling of the lumberjack experience itself. I can’t emphasis enough if we’re going to have tree harvesting on this scale their needs to be visual rewards along with falling a tree.
When a player falls a tree a stump should be left behind. The stump could be a harvestable resource, the equivalent of an “A” (small) class tree. This making it so if a group of players wanted to deforest an area there would be a feeling of progression with the stumps left behind. This would make it so a solo player could come and gather resources from stumps, this would spread out the resource yield more and new trees could be re-spawning during this as well.

I think that harvesting should be a test of a users dexterity, coordination and endurance. How? The wrist. Yes, I'm encouraging not carpal tunnel, but healthy wrist/joint exercises! Haha.. Not really, but kind of. Imagine this:

When i pull my axe out, the head of the axe is attached to my mouse pointer. I have to "flick" the mouse in order to chop the wood - and my axe head must connect with the tree (collision detection) in order to get any wood. Different speeds and paces increase or decrease your success rate and the endurance part comes from the user's ability to "perform" the task as long as they can. Does this make it "unfair" for some people who may have a physical handicap in real life? Yup, but they are afflicted by the same handicap in real life, no? (and let's look at handicaps as more like a challenge that strengthens your other aspects/abilities).. So maybe a guy who has a bad wrist with pins in it can't harvest, but maybe he can still be profitable and successful in other ways that allow him to "master" his profession while working/trading with someone fit for a profession (harvesting) that he is unable to do (and the harvester might not be able to do what he does - it just might work).

Granted, I'm sure this wouldn't be the case in every instance, buuuut that's for the technicalities of, "But what about bob? He can't flick the mouse like that for long if at all.".. I've got a feeling Bob is an expert in other areas of life made strong by his "handicap", aye?

Maybe I'm crazy, I dunno. It just wouldn't be as boring as holding down the LMB. *shrug*

-Trok'blud <Hackskull Ogres>
www.psyodronix.com

Watch me draw EverQuest at twitch.tv/trokblud and like @Psyodronix on twitter for comics, speed paintings and more EQ arts!

Looks like they bringing in one of the least chosen options - the log thing.

Hopefully the harvesting tools really can scale and be more useful as one goes. I don't mind a little repetition as long as I can speed it up with upgrades.

Will we be able to get bamboo scythe also?

OMG...please stop. I don't want to cut down trees. Ever.

Do tree sizes have a purpose? Does a x-large tree provide more 'wood' to work with or 'better' quality wood?

Does a x-small tree provide some special degree of sap that makes it meaningful to cut it down?

Why could Lumberjack Union 89 bother cutting down x-small trees over x-large trees?

Are all trees open to being harvested? So clear cutting is possible? Do they respawn? Or once cut down they are gone and someone has to plant new ones? How long do they take to 'grow' or respawn?

Different trees have different advantages and disadvantages? Make a club out of maple and it breaks easier but an oak club is more rugged?

Furniture made out of oak lasts longer than out of pine?

Burning logs of oak versus burning logs of pine to heat fires for smithing, etc vary in length (and heat?) of the fire?

An x-large tree is an 'old growth' tree? And thus provides more resources ("wood planks"?) due to the sheer size?

Unless trees respawn...and as long as all trees are targets for harvesting...deforestation should be a concern.

Make it so cutting down a large or x-large tree takes some time but provides a reasonable amount of "wood" but don't make this process possible for anyone toon. It is so annoying to see a toon in all plate mail suddenly whip out an axe to chop a tree down. Knights of the Round Oaken Treetoppers Table? Please...stop.

Does the tree have to be hauled to a place to 'process' it into a different form? Do toons have the benefit of stripping a tree of the excess branches and using those branches for other purposes (fires, crafting use?)???

Then the stripped tree (the main trunk) is hauled to a processing location (a camp setup in the/near the forest or hauled over land to a city/fort/etc. or floated down a waterway to a processing location)????

Or is it the simple process of cutting a tree down and putting that 200' tall tree in a backpack and moving on???

As someone else mentioned...steal EVE Online's resource gathering process...and adapt it to resource gathering...not just trees...

This game is looking less and less appealing the more details that come out...sadly. All the hype of genre redefining to only see the same cookie cutter concepts from other games grafted into the Frankenstein it is becoming.

Would like to see more variety of trees to cut down and make some rare ones spawn out there that have a longer life than the rest so we can call them out and everyone can come cut it down. Like a super large tree that is rare and when it is found people can shout out its location and everyone can come cut it down, like a giant redwood or something. That might make for a fun event.

The animation and act of tree harvesting is okay. It's hard to provide appropriate feedback when the terrain isn't done, the land masses aren't as large as they will be.

Today the biggest issue with tree harvesting for me isn't how it's done, it's the proximity of mountains to each other - the access to trees based on terrain. I live in the pacific northwest and we have loads of mountains and they don't look anything like the terrain in game - meaning too many mountains and low valleys and some trees in between. The mountains here have trees ON them, not just in the valleys. Terrain is my issue with tree harvesting. Go figure ehh?

Tree cutting...

Here's how I see it:

You cut trees in a large procedurally generated area, and eventually you can automate it. On top of that, I'd actually like to see a tree fall over after you cut it down the middle for once. Random rewards are always nice for pushing dopamine buttons, but do you know, dopamine comes in the ANTICIPATION of pleasure, as it is not the mechanism for the release of pleasure itself.

So, random rewards don't actually make something necessarily more fun, they just make them significantly more motivating.

I'll be quite honest: minecraft spoiled me with the amount of terrain you have available for creative projects. Likewise, if I want to collect trees, I want to be able to automate it. Since this game is more complex than minecraft, making a system that actually grows trees and automatically cuts them isn't something that you could do with mechanics, but that you'd actually want something programmed in to automate it, such as NPCs (or new players?) on a payroll.

"Rare" vs. "Distant"
Rare, or perhaps distant varieties of wood would be a great way to make tree hunting a fun activity. I.e. maybe mahogany would be a very rare type of wood in a tundra environment, while pine would be very rare in a jungle environment. Putting a physical barrier on the locations would make for great profitability from those who are willing to haul things from long distance and would make the game significantly more immersive.

Then, you could still have trees that are actually rare in any environment that might fetch a serious premium if a wood that is rare and native to one environment is taken to another environment where it doesn't exist at all.

Geography is a great way to influence economics in an interesting way.

I don't know how things are now, but I think about things like real tree harvesters might have experienced long ago...

If you didn't chop the tree correctly, it could fall on you. You didn't just cut one side of a tree, you had to cut into this side, and that side, so that it would fall according to your desires... and hopefully not on YOU.

If you lost focus and hit a knot, you could be severely injured. Or get your axe stuck or broken.

This comes back, as well, to the old Minecraft idea of sticking 20 tonnes of rock in your pack and strutting home like you're carrying a single feather.

Instead of making the logging itself the "hard part", make us do horse logging. Make managing the logging horses (as they drag the logs home) and protecting them, the "hard part".

Why should I be able to walk home with 1500 pounds of logs?? Am I Superman? Where have I stashed them?

Instead of making it take 10 minutes to simply cut down at tree, make us log it, attach it, and drive the horses home with it--and protect them along the way.

Make it a little more real!


Here's a couple of videos that give you an idea of horse logging (of course, you can look it up, too):

http://video.nationalgeographic.com/video/horses-logging

Turning, backing, stopping.... going around things... things that could snarl your log or your gear... etc.:




Some fun facts about horse skidding (dragging) of logs, which shows how it could be used to impact the economy of Norrath:

http://www.uky.edu/OtherOrgs/AppalFor/draftl.html



There is a lot of equipment necessary for this. This would create quite the lucrative trade business in-game. Providing training for the animals, providing harness, providing arches, providing chain.... the list goes on. These would all be made by crafters. And if you wanted to pull a massive oak (for example), you'd need a team of horses, not just one.

So "horse rental" or even "skidding" jobs would become available. You might harvest, but someone else would have to skid for you for now... until you get your own harnesses and grips and dogs and chains...

Tree/plant harvesting has a very interesting approach in a funny french MMO called Wakfu. I do not know if you are familiar with the game, but it has a very good ecological and environmental approach to crafting.

Trees, plants and crops can be either cut down for final produce such as wood, whole plants and crops, destroying the plant in it's process But they can also be harvested for their seeds which can be re-planted on certain soils for them to grow and the process repeated.

The problem is that people are very destructive so there is the chance of having no plant left. That's why I encourage the idea of replanting, but not the idea of limiting it. Plants can grow on their own over time, but having the possibility of replanting then, would be a great educational tool. Or a limitation to harvesting implemented once a threshold has been reached. So limit harvesting to above 10% of the nearby plants and let people replant so that they don't have to camp trees and bushes

I would also like to see mines in the game as opposed to nodes. You want that precious mithril ore? Go underground and use that pick. But beware as dangers await lurking in the depths of darkness

I hate monotony almost as much as deforestation but i do like the idea of dropping seed to replant

Have to say that e.g. in Wildstar the harvesting ore was refreshing - ore were actually bugs which could run away from you, sometimes a gigantic wurm spawned and sometimes ore collapsed to a hole where you could hunt for ore inside a cave for few minutes. Nothing major but breaking to monotony. Therefore I really consider it best to have some suprises and random results to freshen up the experience.

I would rather see trees slowly growing from a sapling to the max size tree over time. They should slowly grow resources over time as well. But each considered stage of a trees growth should offer different materials. If I am only looking for a specific resource then I should have to go find the tree type I am looking for. Then I should have to find the size that would narrow down the exact mat I want. At a certain point in the growth process starting at large to x-large trees should drop seeds upon felling. Also the tree itself should drop seeds itself to grow more trees as well. though players could fell the tree and collect seeds to plant in other areas.

Then you come to chopping the tree down. Getting 5-6 swings for mats before the tree "blows up" isnt my idea of being a lumberjack. The tree should fall over and at that point you should be able to harvest mats relative to the size of the tree. But the trees should have hp equal to there size as well. They should have more hp then they do now to make up for the amount of mats you could collect from a single tree so you dont need to deforrest a place to get enough mats that you are looking for.

The players skill in lumberjacking should increase the amount of time it takes to fell a tree. Also there should be a chance to crit it down as well.

I think if there was a possibility that a tree could be so old that you mistakenly hit an ent that springs furiously to life. With the lack of damage or death in landmark you could just be knocked away by the ent as you try to chop it down for a chance at a larger pool of rarer mats.