How complex should the Landmark design tools be?

The options aren't equal. I would like something that can be as easy as Minecraft (A kid can do it), but can scale up to more difficult tasks that Minecraft can't do.

The majority of players who want hardcore options will never take the time to learn them, but will say they want them. So having both is a nice fallback plan to keep players/creators interested and willing to push themselves as they can slowly see their own progress rather than wade through 50 tutorials on how to make a room.

*Edit: @Boe - Thats a kind of neat idea. Spore type Mob generator.

As complex as you feel targeted type of player can handle.

My intention isn't to insult anyone by saying this but if somebody isn't able to grasp a complex tool then I doubt their creations with less complex tools will be anything unique.

I think there should be some servers that only allow norrathian assets, and other servers where players can create assets and upload into the game to make more complicated designs. The totally open servers should let you mold them into anything you like, if you want to recreate manhatten and then use it as a pvp battleground knocking down walls/buildings with spells and abilities you should be able to. And I think it would be great if you could allow one server that is norrath and landmarkable yet has both eq characters and planetside characters on it at once. Allowing for some interesting gameplay. But I know that is pretty silly and off the wall and not likely to happen, still think it might be a fun diversion to see who wins wars, fantasy or technology.

The tools should be as complex as possible at launch, we dont want to be a year or two down the road and having to wait for new tools/systems that should have been in the game from the beginning. A robust building system from the very start will ensure that we as players can create some of the most stunning objects/buildings that have ever been used in a MMO. Just look at Minecraft and what players have been able to build from basically nothing.

I would love to be able to use the design tools and make things and I would have to start out in easy mode but I am interested in learning more about it and then being able to do more with it as I learn the more advanced techniques. If I can make something simple to start with I think that is great but I don't want us to be so limited either.

Without power we can't bring to life our imaginations. Much like it took computing power years to catchup with the Holy Grails of EQ: Next

When I first saw EQN: Landmark, I immediately thought EQ: Minecraft.
Minecraft is a great creation game and not a bad thing to model yourself after, however those who are really into it will use mods to give them abilities beyond the basic tools. This is why you should be more complex than Minecraft, which you appear to already be with the smoothing and the size scaling of the tools.
Also I don't want to have to use a manual to create what I want... I've spent too much time on Minecraft wikis finding out what the mod I just installed actually does. Everything thing we need to know should be in the game itself and not out on a website somewhere that we need to constantly refer to.

(1) Do it have to be complex to be able to do alot of stuff?

(2) Can we start with something and see what happens, to get an idea of where we get with what we have. I would be all for a system that evolves, i dont have to get Everything the first day.

(3) Im very much looking forward to this! Creating Worlds !

I agree with DOAM.

The tools should be there to allow as much complexity as we desire. The more we have the work with, the more creative we can be! I can only sit in anticipation at the imaginations some of my fellow players will have.

Start it off with a tutorial, start simple and as we become more comfortable with the program it will allow our skills with the program to increase as well.

I'm sure after a few weeks there will be PLENTY of youtube video tutorials posted by many players to help all of our fellow gamers get involved in the process because like Dave and Smed said, this game is for all of us.

Oh I just hope we can get a hold on ALL the textures and alphas available in the game, so that wood looks like wood, rock like rock, and so on so forth. I always wanted to create arched vaults and butress (I'm a Builder by blood) but no game editor gave me the freedom to customize them as I placed them all over my buildings and said "too generic". Voxels are the future of detail and I want all of those all around my tools, from the tiniest voxel to the XXL voxel brush, Smooth brush and Bevel brush and... EXTRUDE BRUSH! (seriously, no Extrude Geometry? *wink wink*) oh, and Clone Brush, for those tedious repetitive tasks (or at least, to copy paste sections and be able to deploy them on the fly).

And glassware. My, I want to create pretty elven stained glass for my windows and such. And what about be able to place tapestries and banners with customized textures or graphics? Just if the available textures aren't enough to please our tastes (a ramparnt Kerran for my banner? a past epic battle of my guild captured on our guild-house tapestries? YES). Oh, possibilities.

Complex, but intuitive...

Perhaps the level of complexity that can be created is based on practice, and skill using specific tools.

The more complex you make something, the less people will be able to use it. Make it simple and intuitive but not complex. This was one thing that hurt the original NWN1's toolset. It wasn't what you would call "flexible" with its complexities. The more accessible you make it, the more people will use it. I remember when trying to design bases in City of Heroes/Villains when they introduced the feature and it was just an unbelievable chore with the level of complexity to the system. I wound up designating the base designing to people that enjoyed such things and they handled the bases. I for one would never touch it. I tried it, I wanted to like it, but the level of complexity really turned me off it and I never touched the base editor ever again after that.

To be honest, I'm far more interested in the game place/environment/music/experience, then I am with building things, however, I'm sure there are loads of fans wanting to get their hands on some tools, have a few options, like simple, and advanced, where options are available

We want as much power as possible without giving anyone a chance to ruin the gameexperience for anyone else.

Easy questions, get's an easy answer

[Added thrue Edit: I agree with Banegrivm that if we make it to complex less people will use it. That is something we should think about.]

I don't think complexity is the issue. I think it needs to be powerful enough and diverse enough to create the shapes and forms that are needed to construct the structures. Minecraft is great , but angles and shapes are difficult. I like the idea of flat surface that is really cool. It gets the looks away from being like "Legos" and more like building material.

Dave didn't talk about housing in the game, but this whole landmark idea opens up a whole new level and idea of housing. I was hopeful when the partnership was announced and I think from what I saw that hope has now changed to excitement. The partnership also probable added to the 3D multi layers of the game. Which is really cool and opens up a lot of the world that was not open before. Could the Ruins of Kunark now actually be found under the land???

As complex as you can make it while still remaining intuitive.

It needs power, but it also need to be intuitive. There needs to be a sort of "Simple" and "Advanced" modes. Especially for cooperative building, the less interested players can lay out basics and more experienced ones can zip around doing the polish and detail work.

Complexity should prevail, and I don’t think it needs to be “usable by anyone” at the highest level. Obviously it can’t be as complex as something like Maya or Zbrush, and it should have a “basic” mode for casuals or kids looking for a “minecraft” type experience, but I don’t think long-term usability and depth should be compromised just to suit the lowest common denominator. Catering to the masses breads predictability, you need look no further than Neverwinter’s Foundry and the exceedingly limited options provided within, all in the name of simplicity.

These games last for years, people will learn to work with the complexity over time, and stripping back the features just so the easily frustrated can churn out identical boxes does nothing but punish those of us willing to learn. It also lowers the bar and limits the creativity of your audience.

Contests were mentioned about getting assets from landmark to be used in EQn proper, and the only way you’re going to get profession grade assets is if you give the serious modders the tools they need to do what they do, otherwise you're only going to see a lot of buildings that look like either melted wax or laser cut blocks.

Woah... I gotta stop you right there on the NWN1 toolset. That thing allowed people to make some of the greatest worlds known to the RP community and wasn't that difficult to do so. I'll give you the triggers and such, but to just create a house or a town or even a single room was pretty easy and you could create near works of art with it.
With that in mind... perhaps there should actually be talk about having both sides of the coin. Having a scaling system of creation. You can set it for easy building with basic things like simple Minecraft or legos, and from there you can turn that all the way up to high level engineering degree and rocket scientist.

I hope they don't go for the 'overcomplex' option.

It doesn't make more sense that more complex means 'better'. If anything, it means delays in getting the system to work properly because it's more complex.

Since the Landmark is already going to be better than anything out in any other mmo like Neverwinter's ability to create content, why go for twice as complicated?