How do you feel about modern concepts like guns and Ninjas in EverQuest Next?

Ooh, is this the part where someone that's been here all of a day comes in and tries to berate, insult and browbeat us into submission before figuring out that.. hey, the sides here are pretty friendly, and we've been over practically everything this topic could possibly have said during the 214 pages before they got here? *snort* Let me go get my popcorn.

Debating is awesome. So are new ideas, or thoughts, or opinions. New angles of thought to look at for both sides, or even just a fresh view on things. What I find deplorable are the people that come in and immediately start being rude to our wonderful little community here, on -either- side. Anyone that calls someone "kid" in a derogatory sense is just immediately being a self-important, pretentious blowhard. *shrug* My two cents, at least.

If you want to have a polite, intelligent discussion.. we're all ears. Is there some particular reason that people feel they are incapable of disagreeing and being polite at the same time? We've certainly managed it, even in our worst of arguments throughout this thread. It certainly doesn't start you off with the best reputation around here, when we're all fairly close and know each other.

Lore -can- be changed, yes. But does it need to be? Why? They -did- call it an EverQuest game for a reason. They're changing plenty of things, and we're all very excited about it. But adding something simply because it is 'cool' or because other games have done it, when we're trying to be innovative and go new directions? I think I shall have to pass, thank you. If they wanted a completely different game, they very well could have gone with a new IP. I shan't get into the whole argument yet again as we've been over it a dozen times, but please, feel free to state your logical, fact driven reasons, and we will be happy to converse with you. There's no need for rudeness, however, just because someone disagrees with you. It's very uncouth.

If you are going to attack one side or the other, at least do us the kindness of reading or glancing back through the thread, so you can see where some of the arguments and issues have come from and been resolved, or where the two sides have been able to come back together. *shrug*

I call your bluff Sliph. Tell me about MMORPG's and Roleplaying in general when you've played besides Gygax himself, as I once had the honor of doing. Sadly no one can anymore.

From your profile it seems you like shooters...most played game in fact. You do have a broad range of games played - just like my 18 year old. Hrm, 456 games between PC and XBox? No, you have all 4 of my kids beat on that. Looks like a very bored gamer that just can't seem to find something that finally hits home - something that can and will keep your attention.

Ya see Sliph, I only play Everquest 2. I have played all the top MMORPG's in the past, but only because I was trying to find what Everquest once had. So no, I can't compare to your amazing Candy Crush Saga scores, or your elite status in TERA, but it seems like you need to step outside every now and then and maybe let the warm glow of that sunshine warm your face. Then come back inside and re-evaluate your epeen... since June 22, 2012 you have 2,740 hours logged in on games? Over 114 days of gaming in slightly over 14 months? Egads man!

I nominate Sliph "King of the Changelings"! You truly have given your life over to the cause on a level I cannot match.

Now, find yourself a real dating site besides that Raptr profile you're so proud of.

P.S. No neckbeard here. Dwarves wear FULL BEARDS!

Lots of faction agro dished out here today... I want to stay friendly with the Neckbeard Clan and the Inclusive Sect. Can't we all just get along?

Bah, I beg the forgiveness of all those normally able to converse in a rational, kind and eloquent manner. The dwarven ale brings forth the years I spent slumming in the world known as Azeroth - and reminds me why I don't want to ever go back there again.

Ye attack a dwarf's hearth, and the axe comes out.

Feh, you're fine Aaz. You were a lot more precise and polite than I was. And Xurtan got it dead on. Because it doesn't matter what opinion one might have - if it's worth standing up for, it's worth being respectful about it. (And that's one of mine.) 'Sides, Dorfs are supposed to be gruff. It's expected =)

(And excuse my ignorance, but what's a neckbeard? Is that something that happens in the natural world?)

If you attack me first I attack you. Don't pretend your replies to me where meant in a "friendly" way. I don't play that feign innocence game well. When you reply to me FIRST politely I will do the same until then you dish it out i will too. I got attacked as soon as i came in with an opinion that was just obviously waaaay too out there for some of you to take.

I ended with the smiley because thats exactly what was done to me. Again if you come at me with smugness expect the same.

I love everquest I have for many years, I met my wife through everquest I don't want to see it fail and repeating the same ideas over and over and not being accepting of new ones is failure. Some of you look at eq with rose colored glasses. It was not all hearts and flowers and to implement the same ideas today would be folly. But i see i'm in the wrong place for discussion unless I conform to the forum police ideas of what eqnext should be.

You know what I noticed? Everybody is up in arms (giggle) about guns, but not ninjas. I mean, I'm even kind of ok with a pseudo-ninja class on top of the monk class.

Unfortunately, smugness is not what you were delivering. You were being rude, arrogant, and attacking people right out of the gate. It has nothing to do with forum police. It has everything to do with behaving civilly among people who share similar (if not always identical) interests. This particular forum is one of the most sane, friendly, non-aggressive places I've ever been on the net, and I sure would hate to see that change.

As for the rest, I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't look at EQ through rose colored glasses. I was there from the beginning and I stayed there for 7 years. I went back there 3 different times afterward. And you're right...it was not all hearts and flowers. But it WAS a really memorable gaming time for me. Which is more than I can say for any other game I've played. And as for EQN failing by implementing some of the original ideas, I guess it remains to be seen. We don't know yet exactly which of the old and which of the new will actually go in at release. Some might even venture to suggest that there's nothing wrong with a little of both. But I do know there's a reason I stayed there as long as I did, and there's a reason I don't play it any more. Because the same stale assembly line ideas that began to worm their way into EQ1 have been implemented into every game on the market currently. Bleh.

Some people don't like Ninjas. They aren't quite as much of a problem as the guns would pose for the majority of individuals here.

I wouldn't mind a Ninja class. I just don't really care for the name of the iconic look of them. Would be nice if they didn't go that route in my opinion.

We're still waiting for your answers... none of us will ever conform to police ideas (whatever that means) but we don't condescend anyone who is polite and offers ideas stating their opinions. Hell ,these guys changed my opinion on Ninja (which I was against, even though I technically AM a ninja, since I take lessons). Change my mind. Change all of our minds. Calling us neckbeards, whatever the hell that is (I assume it's an insult) doesn't make anyone pay you any more attention here. I met my wife in EQ also, we have a lot in common. I don't want most of old EQ back, but to keep the heart and soul of the game intact means a lot to all of us here, on each side of the issue. Give us your answers and let us all debate, instead of avoiding this simple request and continuing to insult and ridicule people. Your definition of "fantasy" post was smug and rude, and also was debunked by my good friend Tiwi. Give us something else.

I am getting old, but I'll take a guess that neckbeard is related to hipster. I have seen pseudo beards that only cover the area below the chin and neck, so I'm guessing that's the reference. I can see his point though, if its a retro thing some gamers are into these days. like the 13 year old wearing an AC/DC concert t-shirt.

I met my wife the old fashioned way, but I introduced her to EQ shortly after Kunark came out. She had minimal PC experience and had only played NES games before. Fast forward a few years, and we had guildies fly in from several states away for our wedding. The couple that plays together, stays together!

The basic concept of a ninja works in pretty much any fantasy setting. Even people who are wary about the setting drifting too far 'East' can see ways for westernized ninjas to work. Firearms are a bit touchier since they're largely left out of traditional fantasy settings (for no clear reason - most fantasy settings have more than adequate technological sophistication to support firearms).

I stumbled across another great point why we shouldnt have guns:

Philosophy, All other classes powers (swinging a sword, using magic) come from within. One becomes a hero.
Guns empower the weak which is the opposite.

Watch this 5min youtube video for a detailed explanation.

From urban dictionary:

Neckbeard
(n) Derogatory term for slovenly nerdy people who have no sense of hygene or grooming. Often related to hobbies such as card gaming, video gaming, anime, et. al.


It's a pretty common term used by people who like to put down hippies or gamers. It's a relatively common style of beard though as it's a naturally occurring pattern of hair growth. I come from an Amish family, live in a rural area, play bluegrass music, like fantasy games, and work in a university mathematics department - where neck beards are popular among all these populations. That would put me smack dab in the beardiest intersection on the Venn diagram of neck beards. Also commonly seen worn by Samwell Tarly on Game of Thrones. I admit to having one myself at times, though I generally let my girlfriend decide how I should wear my facial hair at any given moment as it's not that important to me. Somehow I guess people allow themselves to feel superior to others though for the sake that they more often scrape a razor across their necks.

Despite Sliph's adversarial tone, I can empathize with his frustration. As both a long time player of the EQ series and also a supporter of the possibilities that gun play can bring to the game, it's easy to get the impression here sometimes that our appreciation for the series/genre is discounted since we don't necessarily appreciate the series for the same paramount reasons. It's too easy to generalize or stereotype people with whom we disagree in either case. Hehe, that's actually one of the reasons I mostly abstained from participating in earlier discussion when folks were dividing up like we were separate political parties - the "changeling" and "purist" parties. Making things political is about the quickest way for people to stop actually listening to each other. Why listen at all when we can just shove everyone into neatly divided groups where we already know what to think of each other? I digress though... still pro-gun, always pro-EQ, and definitely pro-Samwell Tarly.

I very much hope that I have never discounted your appreciation for EQ. You and I disagree on the gun issue, but I still like almost every post you make (even the ones I don't agree with fully) because you make a good argument, you do it with class, and you do it with good, appropriate humor. (You guys also had me close to changing my mind with those pics and ideas of fantasy-stylized guns way back on whatever page it is now). I daresay you would have my mind changed if I could know that there would be no full on rapid-fire wackiness, but since I know the slippery slope will inevitably end with r-f-w, I must continue to debate against guns in all forms.

And Samwell Tarly does indeed rock. Now I know what a neckbeard is. Also, Neckbeard is a great pirate name.

Hear, hear! I've thoroughly enjoyed debating with all of you, and it has truly been a pleasure to know all of you. Even when I felt like banging my head against the wall in the toughest of debates, it was still an experience I wouldn't trade. Y'all have brought me closer to the gun side a couple of times, you have all had well reasoned, well articulated, polite arguments, that are a joy to read, and even more fun to counter. *grin* Ori, Elly, Goss, Aaz, Tiwi, and everyone else who has been here, either recently or from the start, who has been polite, and intelligent, and helped make this one of the better forum experiences I've had.. thank you. Whichever way the issue ends up going, I hope we can continue to converse throughout our time here, and make EQN the best game we possibly can. No matter which side of the debates we end up on.

As far as the "political" parties, I think those are mostly tongue-in-cheek. Although it certainly has seemed to break down into those sides a couple of times, in our nastier pages. *snort*

And Ori, I truly hope we haven't made you feel like your opinion doesn't matter every bit as much as ours does. Though we remain on opposite sides, you are truly our brother in arms. (Pun, naturally, intended)

An interesting video - but it doesn't support your argument. The video cites examples where the gun is used both as an internal and as an empowering weapon, demonstrating that it can really be either. Just as the concept of a gun can be either internal or empowering, so can the concept of a sword or the concept of magic.
The video also emphasizes that the treatment of weapons is based on the culture in which the game is developed. EQ is and always has been a US game and the setting has always reflected that underlying culture - this is one reason why MMOs and FPS games have started to merge over the last few years. Both genres of games are explorations of the player as hero - they have traditionally focused on different aspects of that concept more due to technological limitations than due to any real conflict in the underlying structure of the game. EQ has always had a 'everyman hero' feel - it's very much a western frontier setting. There's absolutely no reason why a gun fighter couldn't be implemented with the same underlying philosophies as every other class in the game.

That said - the video does touch on some ideas on why Ninjas could be problematic.

I like to think some people are stuck with thinking Fantasy = Middle Ages (aka Medieval) located in Europe and the sorts adding in magic and other sorts.
Though this period lasted quite a long time, during this time period they did develop firearms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_firearm)
Would be interesting to have maybe something similar to the fire lance lol. Don't see many games using them.

Who exactly was I attacking? Please point out the name because I don't see it anywhere in my original post. You may have found it rude and or smug but it wasn't directed at anyone in particular, it is just the way I feel about it. However people had no problem proceeding to immediately attack me directly for my view. I'll try to sound more "pleasant" in the future since everyone around here is so sensitive apparently.

I don't see the problem adding ninjas or guns or whatever they want to call them, if it adds variety to the game then I say go for it. Variety is the spice of life, when you take it away everything is bland. I have a hard time finding common ground with people that are against new ideas and against change. Quite honestly it angers me because I see it as close minded and ultimately destructive thinking and I've seen far too many games ruined because of people who didn't want things to change. I'm tired of it and im tired of people being afraid to speak up against those who resist change because they fear the backlash. EQnext is my last attempt at playing an mmo in the long term. I DO NOT WANT IT TO FAIL. If that means I ruffle some feathers on an internet forum than so be it but I will speak my mind.