So, my monk is now almost lvl 29 and I see a huge difference

Exactly what I said earlier in this thread and others. The monk is a late bloomer that turns into a VERY VERY capable MT in almost all groups. Personally, I think a berserker works better than a guardian because it would give the berserker the chance to do some MAJOR DPS, helping kill the mob faster.

I think GangsterFist fist is saying that the 30+ mobs take down his life super fast and he cant tank them.
How does that make us capable?
Message Edited by Blaze79 on 12-02-2004 05:59 AM

The prejudice has begun, by the way. Last night I got denied a group because as a monk I wasn't "a tank tank." I found it amusing, because among my friends I am the tank of choice due to my ability to hold agro. I am disappointed to admit, though, that when I let someone else tank and I intervene for them, I take way more damage than they do! I suppose this is because of our lack of mitigation.

Well, here is something helpful maybe. I have stopped using all weapons pretty much, and am just using my bare fists. I know people automatically think its bad because they do not count as dual wield. Well, since i can punch for about 45 to 95 damage I don't mind. I think the delay on fists is 1.7 - 2 seconds. It seems to hit just as fast at the makoto staff which is 1.7 seconds. Now add in my new lvl 30 attacks and I easily out DPS any tank out there. My new kick can do up to 200 damage, and has a 30sec recast, and when it hits my opponet it freezes them for a second. I have many attacks that do over 100 damage on seperate timers. Now, if I only had haste, I would probably never look at using weapons.

Don't get me wrong, I can tank in groups, and I do when I have to or when I am with the guild. However, I as a monk, do not tank equal compared to any other fighter. The DPS and avoidance does not equal out.

Made a pick up group last night for xp, and the cleric i asked said he would join if I got a tank, so still there is some stigma being a monk.

Have you tried it yet? Don't be so closed minded, it makes the monk a way better tank when a guardian buffs you up. Then when the guardian takes all the damage for you, but takes less than they would normally because of your avoidance, just means more effeciency. It does not mean you have to group with a guardian, it means its suggested. However, before you form your opinion try it out with a guardian you will see the results yourself.

Also, martial arts is not totally about balance, but balance is part of it. Martial arts is about control and effeciency. Real fighting is not as pretty as kung fu makes it out to be. There are many moves you practice in kung fu you would never use in a real fight. Why practice them then? Well, think of it this way, its good training. Train full range of motion so you can develop short, fast, compact moves with release. Its all about building attributes.

I have been thinking about the post here and combining the monk with a guardian in a group. It seems like this is a serious win win combination.

Monk holds aggro with much higher dmg output than guardian.
Monk avoidance will keep him from taking every hit.
Intervene from the Guardian.
When the monk is hit, the damage is absorbed by the guardian
The Guardian will mitigate some of the damage because of their amor.

What's wrong with this? Yes its forcing us to have to work together more but having a tanking team seems to be fine if thats how its supposed to work. We are all assuming we know all of the possibilities on how these classes work with or off of each other. Maybe there are other things people have yet to figure out that would make us wanted in groups.

Sounds like once people realize what this combination gets them (better tanking solution) they may wise up.

ok, i couldnt finish reading all the posts before i headed off to work today. however many of these posts have a familar, eq1, ring to them.

now, i wont profess to be an expert, as i have just turned 20 and begun my armor quests, but i duo with a shaman, and we have yet to need a group for anything. i think the reasons are all about the types of mobs you go after. if you are going after orange and yellow mobs...no i dont think a monk was intended to tank that type of encounter. myself and my shaman stick with the blue/even con mobs and we burn thru exp. and i find that those mobs the exp moves faster than trying to mow thru the higher level con mobs. i think a monk just has to pick their battles, a monk cant tank everything, but i sure know i haven't had a problem yet.

In your Duo are you talking about solo mobs? Becuase at 21 there is no way I could take out a even con^^ mob with a duo. Its like I am hemmoraging HPS.

Once you hit level 20, the game changes. Once you hit level 30 it changes more. Just try it out for yourself, and you will see what we are talking about. I can only assume once you hit 40 and 50 it changes even more. We will have to wait to see how the monk pans out at lvl 50.

-wong
lvl 30 monk
Kithicor server

ya, i've taken out multipule mobs...in fact ive taken...i think 3 even cons (no arrows) at once

and im sure i'll be seeing things change in the 20+ game, i guess i just didnt expect so much of a change that i would no longer be able to function as i have in the past, i figured i would have to learn to use my new skills to fuction as i want to...i'll have to learn as i level and get back with ya... lol, maybe i'll be hollaring just as much as some of y'all in 10levels.
Message Edited by Kaldia on 12-02-2004 10:56 AM

Too many players are comparing this game to EQ1. It's not EQ1 so people need to start analyzing and accepting what this game is and all of it's nuances.

In EQ1, your skills and abilities were for the most part completely independent of the people around you. It didn't matter if you had a tank next to you or a caster next to you, it had no influence on what YOU did during combat. You always did the same things, which for a Monk was for the most part hit Auto Attack and click a special attack or two every few seconds.

This game is built around grouping and teamwork. Classes get buffs for their allies for a reason. The post that GansterFist made is a very good one because it proves that trying new things may open your eyes a little about your abilities as well as help develop tactics in this game.

Statements like "I doubt Sony intended for us to rely on other classes to be a viable tank" are quite humorous. Take a closer look at buffs that classes can use to enhance their allies abilities outside of just giving them haste and more HPs and AC (those 3 types constituting the bulk of buff types in EQ1) and you might see that this is EXACTLY what Sony designed this game to be. Right or wrong, love it or hate it, the game IS designed this way.

The game is EverQuest 2, not EverQuest 1 v2.0.
Message Edited by Velorek on 12-02-2004 02:09 PM

Welcome to the Everquest II Admin Section!
>>enter settings for class: monk
alt + tab
Welcome to the Everquest Admin Section!
Shift + down
CRTL + C
alt + tab
Welcome to the Everquest II Admin Section!
>>enter settings for class: monk
CRTL + V
CRTL + S
Enter
CTRL + F4


It seems that everyone - SoE, programmers, and the "leets" have everquestitis. This is a different game. Monks were promised that things would be different. Monks were promised that they would be fixed in EQ1.

The servers haven't been open for a month, and already we're running into the same stuff.

Is anyone really listening?

Do it right, or dont' do it, Sony. You made one hell of a piece of eye candy there, and the quests are fun and numerous, but for the love all that's Holy, do not screw my class again.

The problem with this gaurdian+monk combo idea is that a guardian could tank it solo, he wouldnt "need" a monk around. Thats not equal at all.

What monks need are situations where it is apparent they will be the prefered tank, because if you have situations where they sorta could do better but a guardian does ok but better in most situations then people will always pick a gaurdian. Less thinking is good. Monks need to be good in sututations where guardians would suck. How is this going to be possible concidering the mechanics of the game?

One Suggestion...
use a shield!

Exactly. If a group has to choose between Monk or Guardian, a Guardians getting that invite.

Yeah they could, but you missed the point. Its more effecient when the monk is the main and the guardian intervines. Simply look at it this way. Higher level mobs hit faster and hit harder. Even though mitigation helps out heavy armor tanks, its not the end all be all situation. This is NOT everquest 1. This is a different game and relies a lot on team tactics. You have a **** healer or a tank that can't hold aggro, then you have a really good chance of wiping in dungeons.

Can the guardian tank solo?

Yes.

Can the guardian + monk combo tank better than the guardian solo?

Yes, its more effecient.

I never said the guardian needed the monk, I said it works. I tested it out against a boss mob that was 6 levels higher than me and hit hard and fast. With the guardian casting all his defense skills and intervine skills on me, I was able to maintain my own very well. The guardian took all my damage for me, so he was the only one being healed, not me. All I needed was a ward and I was fine. Now, I also stated I have not widely tested this, but I am going to assume there is some content where this method will be preferred or even needed. How about if there are creatures that ignore armor and mitigation? Then this tactic would be needed for an effecient group.

Again, you guys act like guardians are just the best tanks hand down for holding aggro, tanking, ect and they are the end all be all solution to tanking. Which is not true, look at the skills the class offers. Look at the skills other classes offer. Instead of just making assumptions that you are right try it out. I have actually tried this, you people who naysay it have not come forth and stated you have tried this tactic.

I played a Monk on Eq1...and here are my 2 cents...when I was considering my choices for Char creation the ONLY class I was sure not to play was the monk...why? well the thing is in Eq1 monks were popular no t because they were great dmg dealers (spellcasters do better anytime), not because they were great tanks (warrior class is better meat shield) we were popular because we were great pullers and mob breakers meaning we could single pull a mob whitin a group of mobs. As soon as I read the link-mob thing it became aparent to me thet the traditional monk role was no more in EQ2 ...so what was the new Role?...well the DEVS said it would bethe tenking role, but being a veteran SOE customer I know what to believe and what not to believe. So from the huge majority of the post Ive read Im happy I did not choose to be a monk because its the same Eq1 monk but without the pulling thing.

What can be done?

1) DONT ASK FOR MORE DPS. Tanks are not damage dealers, if you want to deal dmg go scout or spellcaster. A tank that spends its power dealing dmg is a BAD tank, a Tank needs to hold aggro and take as much dmg as possible...dealing dmg is just icing on the cake.

2) Ask for a better avoidance system. But for things not to be unfair with lower lvl mobs and the soloability aspect that has been mentioned here, ask for avoidance to be % based meaning you have the same percentage of success avoiding a green con or an orange con. The armor of a Guardian or Zerker works equally well if the mob is green or yellow...thats what you as tanking class need. That avoidance gives you the same chance of surviving blows as the other tanks. That will mean that you will take more blows of green and blue cons but less from orange and yellows. Right now green mobs cant touch you but yellows chew you up way to fast. Cant get something without giving something in exchange. It will probably hurt your soloability but will definitively improve your role as a tank.


Message Edited by Monomofo on 12-02-2004 12:40 PM
Message Edited by Monomofo on 12-02-2004 12:42 PM

Wow.

So, your belief is that if you aren't tanking, then you make no viable contribution to a group? No wonder you're disappointed in the Monk class.

I know I bring more to a group than that. Good DPS, extra offensive buffs, some nice emergency utilities as well as the ability to step up and be the tank if need be is alot of value in my book. And apparently, the people who invite me to groups feel the same way too.