So, my monk is now almost lvl 29 and I see a huge difference

Heh. Tell that to all the mobs in Runny Eye that died last night to our group with a 34 main tank monk and me, a 30 secondary tank monk.
If deflection is broke as Moorgard states, we'll only be better when its fixed.
I ASSURE you that monks can tank content well into the 40s at least, because I've SEEN it.

YOu still had to intervine on the monk to make him effective you said. With plate tanks you usually dont need to do that. However, if deflection is bugged, then maybe once its fixed monks will be a way more viable main tank for groups.

If you go back and reread some of my posts Gage, I never said the monk can't tank, I said we can't tank equally. Even with the shaman + tank combo, the heavy armor tank still works better. I have been main tank in groups in runnyeye and when damage spikes hit, it gets very hard for the monk to maintain. Now, with the intervine tactic its good, except when you have tons of mobs on the MT. Then you soak damage as the tank takes it, and having to heal 2 people is not as good as just having to heal one.

Also, post some screen shots of a 33 monk tanking a lvl 41 mob. I want to see it.
Message Edited by GangsterFist on 12-03-2004 08:14 AM

I didn't intervene at all, I used staggering stance which I would do if it was a plate tank anyway. IIRC you were saying you couldn't tank in RE and RV at all, correct?
Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on 12-03-2004 08:13 AM

not as well as a full plate guardian my level with 2500 ac.

Also, i don't have the info up on staggering stance atm, but its our intervine upgrade. Thats what i meant. How much downtime did you have with a monk as MT? How many times did the healers go low power or out of power? When I am in RE with a plate tank, we can pretty much kill constantly and take on adds easily with no enchanter. When I tank in runnyeye the fights are closer, and sometimes we gotta evac. If something adds its even harder. I was with a level 30+ group (me being 31 myself). Now, when I have been MT with my guild mates (who all know how to play, its not like we try to zerg stuff or anything) in higher level areas fights are closer, healers drain power faster, and sometimes messed up aggro or adds kill us.

However, with deflection being busted (still, just like it was in beta) maybe things will seem better.

I saw your screenshot I don't remember those mobs being level 41+. I remember them being like level 36 to 38. However, I have not been back in RE since the whole con change patch.
Message Edited by GangsterFist on 12-03-2004 08:38 AM

Those mobs are 38, but the evil eyes down in the bottom are 41+ and we were killing those for the evil eye rampage mission as well.

We had hardly any downtime, and with two healers mana wasn't a problem.

As I said, we played with a 34/35 guardian and a 33/34 monk and we were killing the same mobs, at the same pace with both groups and different MT.

Its all in how you play the class, and the players you have around you.

Granted, we didn't do the 41+ w/o the ench though, so I'll give you that.
Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on 12-03-2004 09:38 AM

Sounds like Monks in EQ2 have a problem similar to the one faced by sword-and-shield Armsmen in DAoC a few years back: defense is based on a random roll rather than a fixed percentage, so, A. as someone pointed out earlier in the thread, it's unreliable due to streaks and B. as someone else pointed out as well, it doesn't scale well when moving up to yellows and oranges.

In order to make this class group-friendly/desirable, I suspect that what would need to happen is to make Deflection a fixed percentage rather than reduced by con. This would reduce soloability, but increase groupability. Of course, it does nothing to resolve the unreliability. Groups using Monks as MTs would have a very flat bell curve, with a lot more "efficient, low-damage" fights and a lot more nail-biters and wipeouts, so Monks would still be less desireable than the plate-wearers. At least it would be a start.

I am very interested in starting a Monk character, but I foresee a career of soloing because, A. it's hard for Monks to get non-guild groups and B. Monks are probably pretty good at it (at least the blues and greens). Guess I should just call him "PlatPharmer" and use him to buy stuff for my other characters

Still, very nice eye candy ;-)

Okay, I gotcha. But tanking evil eyes is not that hard. Casters die fast with good DPS, and if you keep them silenced or stunned they can't really do anything to. Now, with out that someone is gonna get charmed.

True, but like I said we did most of the dungeon including the melee mobs. Meh, either way I think monks can tank fine personally.

I too have noticed my tanking abilities dwindle in the last few levels. In fact its almost to the point where soloing is becoming an issue. True, I can solo, yet it is now creating extended downtime which means its not worth my time doing. I am now level 25 with a full set of quested armor and a full set of teir 3 jewelry, my ac is 898 unbuffed and all of my resistance are over 300. I tell you this because I dont want you to assume that Im a bad monk, or dont know how to play my class. Anyone who has ever grouped with me will tell you that I am a good monk, and a good player. I played a monk in eq1 and I was in an uber guild. www.sovereignguild.org.

Now to the real issues. First of all, I'd like to say I appreciate what gangster is doing. He trying to bring to everyone's attention that our class is suffering from major balancing issues, which it is. All of you brawlers and level 20 monks are chiming in - "But we can tank just fine!!" Truth told, you can. Monk/Brawlers tank great up until level 22 or so. I loved tanking and I did a great job doing it. I was absolutely entertained when leading my group down into the bottom of stormhold holding off yellow mobs with double up arrows and what not. But now, things are changing. At level 25 I can still tank. However, its not efficient and its not worthwhile. Any plate or chain class can tank better. Granted I can tank and I do keep my group alive, but if you watch a berserker do the same job.. you will realize that they are far better at it. Just yesterday I was helping some friends/roomates do their amor #6 quest. My job- at first I was just gonna tag along doing "dps", I say that in quotes because indeed, we are not a dps class and my roomate who plays a swashbuckler can confirm this. Our dps is good, but not great.

Now, when we first started I had asked a friend of mine who played a paladin to come and tank for us. He was there for about 30 minutes and we were storming through mobs. Killing griffons, steelhoufs, and lions. During this time we experienced very little downtime and were moving along quite nicely, handling adds without mezzing and getting wonderful experience (which you do when you dont have downtime). Now - He had to leave. So I assume the role of the tank. I use Brawlers stance, staggering stance, and martial focus - just as any good monk should.

My tanking ability absolutely pales in comparision to that of a paladin, which many would not even consider a "pure" tank. The downtime was slower because more mana was used to keep me alive. Often my hps would fall into the red range. However, while the paladin was tanking his hps never seemed to get below half, at any point. Before all you level 18 brawlers and level 22 monks start flaming my post saying that you tanked this, or you can tank that - wait till level 25 when your bugged deflection really starts to hurt. Get in a group with another tank of equal level with equal equipment. Let him tank for a bit and watch.. then you try tanking. Tank for a good while if they let you. You'll soon realize what Im talking about.

Now many would argue that we are a dps class and shouldnt be tanking. Doesnt the berserker do as much damage as we? Can't the berserker do an incredible job tanking? They can. Ive seen them do it. Ive seen one that was a lower level than I was tank much better. I know he was tanking much better because my roomate was the healer.

The point is - Monks are an unbalanced class. Deflection IS bugged - You get a 39 point bonus at level 20 (At this level you can tank) but it does not go up. Only your base goes up, which is not the number you use to figure in your deflection.

Example:

Level 20 - 139/100
Level 21 - 139/105
Level 22 - 139/110
Level 23 - 139/115... and so on.

What can we do? We can complain until sony fixes it. We can petition and make post until somebody notices. I do want to tank. I do want to enjoy my class. But right now - as it stands.. This class is flawed. Please, us monks as a community must come together on this issue until something is done about it.
Message Edited by Huflung on 12-03-2004 02:44 PM

Huflung's response is probably the best concise statement of where the monk is in tanking at this point in time I've seen yet. In short, monk's can tank, but much worse than any other fighter class.

At this point, my level 22 monk regularly plays with approximately the same level shaman, clearly the best healer class for a monk. Sometimes, we duo. It works surprisingly well. We can take down blue++ with ease, and white++ with difficulty, with just the two of us, and fairly quickly at that. That is absolutely wonderful. But the second I get in a group, I explicitly state that I can't tank well. I'm an excellent player, and I will min/max the class I have for all I'm worth and I love playing multiple roles, but it's evident that despite my best efforts, tanking isn't something I should be doing if we're looking for any sort of efficiency. A yellow++ is a dangerous encounter in a full group for me, simply because I can go down in three unlucky rounds, and dealing with multiple mobs, or worse, adds is a nightmare. The deflection arc completely destroys my ability to tank well in such instances, and even if I didn't have to deal with it, I simply couldn't tank, say, 3 orange + at the same time, which I've seen any number of good heavy tanks do without breaking much of a sweat.

As for monks tanking lower level mobs better than heavy tanks? Complete bunk. A dozen grey+/++ is a worrisome encounter to me, where if they get outside my deflection arc, they can do significant amounts of damage to me. As opposed to a paladin I often party with, where just for laughs, he aggroed about 20 grey+/++ mobs on him, prancing around on his horse until they all got AOE'd to death. After an initial slightly frantic first 15 seconds, his health bar barely budged. At no point would I even consider aggroing 20 mobs, there is no way I would survive that with even the best healers. It wasn't strictly for laughs, we were attempting to see if AOE was at all viable. Later on he tried something like 7 blues at once and the results were about the same. I think I could probably 7 blues with a pair of competent healer, but there's no way i'd try it on a whim. The paladin's health, again, barely budged once the healers got going.

Fact of the matter is, when I duo with my shaman friend, his ability to take damage comparable to mine, or better, to the point that I don't bother using intervene, tranquil nature, or often even taunting. This of course stems from his 1000+ buffed armor class from his medium armor, as opposed to my perhaps 750 buffed light armor. And that's not even counting his potential bear form or staggering stance.

And it's not like the devs don't know we have a problem. The bugged deflection aside, the patch today gave us round shields. They obviously know monks aren't performing up to snuff in terms of tanking. Of course, we all know that a round shield is just a bone thrown our way in some lame attempt to distract us from larger issues.

Err, double post. Sorry.
Message Edited by SinaiGB on 12-03-2004 03:52 PM

NO! No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no!

There IS NO PULLING IN EQ2! Please, people, for the love of all that is good and right in thid world, DO NOT ASK FOR MONKS TO BE PULLERS! This was a completely flawed role in EQL, and was even considered by the devs back when it was Verant running the show to be an EXPLOIT! This tells you how the company views pulling. This is the reason that mobs in EQ2 aren't just mobs that are social. This is why mobs are obviously linked together. This is why mobs are now encounters.

In EQ2, you are SUPPOSED to be able to pull that group of 7 linked mobs because it is balanced as one encounter, and a balanced group CAN win. There is absolutely no reason to seperate mobs in an encounter. The closest you get to pulling now is to use a ranged weapon to grab a single encounter when they are too close to other single encounters to just run up and attack.

Making us pullers IS NOT THE SOLUTION! I will freaking quit this game outright if I am reduced to being 'puller' again.

Today marks the SECOND day in a row that my friend (now 35 monk) has tanked for our group in RE. He did it today with ONE healer who wasn't even a shammy.

You guys need to quit crying nerf and play your class.

Seriously.

We were running all over RE today with: 35 monk (MT), 32 Wiz, 31 Templar, 31 Monk (me), 35 Troubador, 30 Dirge.

Killing named, linked mobs etc and so on.

Sure we had to evac twice, but once was because our Wiz got aggro and once was because a bugged shift boss mob spawned right on top of us after we had just cleared them.

You guys say monks can't tank past 22 and I'm telling you I see it all day long.

Learn the class.

I'm not sure if it is an intended upgrade to Intervene, maybe it shares the same timer. Game mechanics wise its however very different. You do not take any damage if your target is hit, you however get a chance to block/deflect attacks directed at Staggering Stance's target. It will also increase your agility. So in fact, you would hurt yourself not casting it even if you'r MT.

Gage I understand that you feel that monks can Tank. The problem lies in the fact that many players dont. I think we can tank just not as well as the other fighter classes. the problem is, we have no roll in a group that cant be filled by someone that can do it better.

Sure if you have a dedicated group of friends that dont care that your a monk then great you get to play all the time but alot of people dont have a close group of online friends. Most of My RL friends would never play this type of game. So i have to rely on pickup groups and on people i meet in the game. the game has been out for what 4 weeks give or take and already monks are getting turned down for groups. I dont like seeing this and hope that something is done to improve the monks lot.

Personally I dont think monks should be Main tanks I would rather we were more ST s with good DPS. I just dont understand the idea of monks being tanks it doesnt make any sense to me from a RP perspective. In every fantasy novel every game and every story I have ever read they were damage dealers not armored bastions of defense.
Message Edited by Santsu on 12-03-2004 07:10 PM

Huflung said it all!

I feel that way, because they can.
Also, my deflection is 155/155 so if yours isn't updating, flag it.
With deflection supposedly fixed tomorrow and the ability to use round shields (oakwood is +22 h/p, with I think 216 shield @ 31) we are only going to get better.
I don't know why everyone feels guardians can tank "better".

Yes we can tank just not near as good as any of the other fighters. What do you think that we all suck. Alot of us have tested this and monk tanking is the worst of any fighter, thats not opinion thats fact.

By the way your deflections should be 194/155 if the bonus was working correctly.

staggering stance is our upgrade to intervine read the skill description. It says take damage for opponet and up their deflection skills. So, its like they will get hit less often, but when they do, you step in and take some of it for them.

About runnyeye. Well, i did almost the whole dungeon tonight minus a few areas. Considering that our MT (a guardian) got hit several times for over 800 damage (thats with mitigation) means that the monk is no where near an equal tank. 800 damage would take about half my life away. If the mob would crit twice, i would die. Not to mention, we were hardly fighting one mob at a time. So imagine fighting 6 mobs at once, each of them having the chance to crit you for over 600 to 800 damage. Well, I hope for the monks sake that his/her avoidance rolls pass those would be critical hits.

Evil eyes are weak, a wizzard could tank them.


I had a monk in beta, and the same issues are still around with them, and their tanking abilities in comparison to the fighter archetype as a whole. I am not saying it will not work gage. I am saying that heavy plate tanks are better. WE DO NOT TANK EQUALLY.

I gave you 5 stars to offset the 1 star some fan boy gave you.


I agree. monks can tank. They are just no where near the equal to other tanks.


Also, has anyone else tried the monk + guardian combination besides me? I am gonna try it in runnyeye here soon.