So, my monk is now almost lvl 29 and I see a huge difference

Well, being almost level 29 I now have been fighting in the enchanted lands, orcish wastes, varsoons, nek forest, ect. I have noticed a lot of things about the monk which I feared would happen. I played a monk in EQ1, and in never winter nights, when I heard monks were going to be in the fighter subclass and be pure fighters (aka tanks) I had no problem with it. Some people didn't like that idea, and wanted monks to be pure utility (like in eq1).

Well, SoE, you have really made the monk a poor character class in EQ2. First off, no they cannot tank equally. In higher level dungeons I totally get spanked by mobs because they hit for over 300 damage. Now, heavy armor offers mitigation from damage, so they don't take those full hits. Our avoidance needs to be advanced extremely, for us to be effective as main tanks. I have tried many tactics. Now, SoE also states that all tanks will be better in some certain situations. Yeah, monks out tank everyone else when you fight green or grey mobs. Then avoidance works like a charm against lower level mobs. Greens can barely hit me because avoidance always works better against lower level mobs.

Feign death, really only has one use. To avoid a full wipe give your monk a feather (or marble or whatever it is your priests cast) to resurect the healer during a full group wipe. The devs said its also a skill to escape death. However, when everyone in your group dies, and you live by feign death (well when feign death works) you still get xp debt from everyone else. Then you have to see if you can't rez the priest and then get everyone else back up. If they did not die in a good place (like a mob on top of them) then you are pretty much going to wipe anyways. Now, if they let monks drag the shards it would actually be more useful, and make more sense. That way if a wipe did occur, the monk could at least position the fallen comrades into a safe position to rez everyone and try again. That would make the utility of feign death serve a little more purpose and actually make the monk more useful to groups.

So, if I cannot tank at lvl 30, what can a monk do? DPS? Yeah a monks DPS is not that bad. I can pump out more DPS than any other tank, but I cannot tank. So, why have a monk if you can just get a scout, who has better AC, and more DPS than a monk. Usually I group with a guardian or a berzerker and I just DPS and do not main tank. Berzerkers can hold aggro the best by far and guardians suck at taunting. So, really the fighter classes are not balanced.

This is a rant, but its justified. Having a 29 monk and having actually tested my monk out in higher level areas. My monk has a full suit of quest armor or better, and nice accessories (most are yellow or orange to me). So, its not my monks gear.

Something needs to be done to fix this. Monks are already ignored, and the only groups I ever pick up are from guildmate groups.

You are not a tank...let me repeat...You Are NOT a Tank. Don't even try to be one. A crusader/Pal/SK will outank you all day.

Thats the problem, they put us in the tank archetype. Also, actually the crusaders aren't that great either. I have been in several groups with them where they barely out tank me, and sometimes if they do their ac and ward buffs on me I do better. I think they have the worst defensive skills out of all the tanks because they can use magic.

I have been in many groups where the pally/sk will intervine on me with their ac and other buffs and want me to main tank. It actually has worked out fine. However, that is only in that instance.

So, really the monks are stuck between a rock and a hard place right now. Either up their dps so they can compete with scouts or make them able to be main tanks.

If you've seen crappy crusaders/sk/pallys tanking it's their equipment not the class. I tank the same as a guardian of my level, in some cases better because of my wards. You're pretty wrong about their defensive skills, monks and bruisers are far worse defensively than pally/SK.

There are ALOT of BADLY equipped people out there right now. I've seen some level 20 SK's with 500-600 AC. That's horrid. I'm not even remotely "uber" and i'm over 1000AC easy at 22, at level 20 I think i was around 900.

The sk i grouped with was level 28 and had all quest armor or better. So, he had more ac than i did. Trust me, I had this equipment debate a long time ago. He was taking about the same damage i was. Once you hit the level 30 range the game changes a lot. Honestly, berzerkers make the best tanks because they can hold aggro. I have around 1000+ ac unbuffed at my level and around 1500hps or so unbuffed as well. When I get full buffed out I can reach over 2k Hps, and around 1600+ ac which is not too shabby compared to other tanks. I just don't get any kind of mitigation, and the avoidance doesn't work the way they intended it to, to make all tanks, tank equally.

Monks have the highest defensive skills in the game. My deflection stats are way higher than any other class for my level. I have 160+ skill point in deflection. If I use my brawler stance its even higher, so monks by far have the best defensive skills in the game, they just don't have any armor. Plus when fighting yellow or orange ++ mobs, avoidance becomes lame. If I fight a green mob it never hits me. So, yeah monk are way better tanks against lower level stuff, because we get hit way less against them.

Guardians are good tanks, but need better taunts. Nothing taunts better than a berzker with that self haste buff and that blood lust (or blood rage, or whatever its called). Even when I use my instant hate increase taunts to taunt of a berzerker it doesn't work. In a good group you only need 1 tank to hold aggro while the rest DPS and heal/buff. If you add a Dirge to your monk, the monk becomes a very nice DPS addition to the group. Dirges give disease proc spells, so that everytime I score a hit, I have a chance of procing a 60 dmg proc. Add that to my melee attacks + haste from the bard + monk DPS skills = pretty nice DPS.

However, this is not a who is the best tank debate so stop making it one. Its a discussion about how the monk needs to fixed to make them an equal tank. This is not EQ1, so if monks become good main tanks so be it. If not, they need dramatic DPS increases so they can compete with scouts for groups. I am not asking to make them the best tank, I am saying they need to be fixed to make them an EQUAL tank.
Message Edited by GangsterFist on 11-29-2004 11:04 AM

"However, this is not a who is the best tank debate so stop making it one. Its a discussion about how the monk needs to fixed to make them an equal tank. This is not EQ1, so if monks become good main tanks so be it. If not, they need dramatic DPS increases so they can compete with scouts for groups. I am not asking to make them the best tank, I am saying they need to be fixed to make them an EQUAL tank."

Exactly. I'm level 25 and as I progress, the monk becomes more and more of a dissapointment. Everything starts going downhill it seems around level 22 or 23 or so. I'm sorry to see that at 30 the monk becomes even more inept and unwanted for groups.

Gangster,

I completely agree with you, 21 monk here. I have been having problems getting into groups due to the fact that I am a monk.

But my favorite is coming into a group when it is forming, 5 people in it, and they say "OK we can start as soon as we find a tank...."

I think, WTH? No my progession has slowed down considerably due to the fact that is spend most of my time soloing in TS, waiting hours on end to get into a group.

SOE has come up with some good ideas for the monk class overall, but we really need the damage mitigation addressed.

Ryni

Hi,

I am currently level a 22 HE monk. If I main tank in a group with other fighter classess, I request them to put intervene on me, the reason behind this tactic is that I am hit less by the monsters, and the distribution of hits amongst the other fighters will not put a lot of strain to the healer/healers in the group. I can then use my shout, area effect attacks (if no crowd controller in the group) to keep aggro on me. However it is unfortunate to learn that from GangsterFist's experience, that the monk deflection skill does not scale well in the higher levels.
I wonder if SOE is going to balance the scaling of AC based damage mitigation vs deflection skills, specially on the high level (level 50) end game encounters. If it is already balanced, would it involved possessing adept 3 skills on brawler stance, martial focus or related skills/equivalent skills in order for monks to remain viable as a fighter class tank.
Thank you for sharing your observation with us GangsterFist.


Regards,

I TOTALLY agree that we need to be better at deflecting/dodging or more DPS or even both...
I'm now a level 21(nearly22) Monk (Kerra) AQ3 - rest items are yellow/blue, so I have very decent and balanced stats with the slight advantage over agility. When I was about level 19/20, I generally group attaked ++ greens. I thought to myself and the groups I played with thought that - I'm a really good tank because I dont take so much hits and I dont need so much manna to be healed with and the DPS just makes it even bettter.

BUT when I dinged at level 20, I went to The Thundering Steppes, since most of the greens or blues didnt give much exp and I wanted more of a challenge. I waited quite a while before I was even accepted into a group. We had two Templars a wizard, and a rogue. The leader says; 'Just getting a tank for us'. I was quite annoyed and I replied that I was a pretty good tank and I dont require constant healing because I dodge/parry nearly all the attacks. So the leader instead got a summoner. We were all balanced levels (19-21) so there wasnt much arguments going on...

Off we go to the undead which were yellow++ or whites+. I pulled and tried to tank a mob of undead farmers. I was losing rapid health and I was very suprised that I had to be constantly healed because my HP was going down so much and so fast. I could see people in the group were getting annoyed because of the various 'That should of been easy' and 'We should of got a tank'. I was quite embarresed that I said I could tank when I cant tank for ****.

This is the same as in Storm Hold... Monsters hitting nearly all the time, and when they do I'm nearly dead withing a few seconds. I now understand that the monk is nothing more than beautiful animation. The DPS can be good but like gangster said, why not just be a rogue when I'm a useless tank... I'm extremely annoyed that monks are quite bad at tanking and the DPS does not balance it out.

I am 10% from level 29, have a full set of quest armor or better, have two 11-34 dmg dual wield weapons and still I find it hard to keep up with tanks my current level.

I have used the intervine tactic a lot, and really its just more effecient to let the zerker or guardian be main tank and not really mess with the buffs. Even though a guardian can intervine, ally, and crusaders can ac buff and ward plus shaman ward plus shaman slow on the mob, plus chanter haste on the monk. You have to do all that to make the monk work feesable. Which is a lot of planning, otherwise we can skip all that and make the zerker or guardian tank and it works out fine.

SoE needs to fix this issue, so I am not always LFG when my guildmates are offline.

I posted this in another thread, but I think one of the biggest problems we are seeing in our ability to tank is that deflection isn't scaling properly. When we hit 20, we gained a 39pt bonus to deflection 139/100 (approx deflecting like a level 28 monk at level 20). However, as we go up in levels, that max deflection doesnt go up. I am 24 now and my stats read 139/120. Gangster, maybe you can tell me what happens at 28, but from the looks of it, at 28 we would have the same deflection as another tank class if they get the usual 5 points a level. I would think for it to be working properly, our deflection should be 139/139 at level 20 and scale up from there, maintaining our 39pt advantage to deflection.

"You are not a tank...let me repeat...You Are NOT a Tank. Don't even try to be one. A crusader/Pal/SK will outank you all day."

Lol, someone stuck in EQ1 here ?
SOE put Monks into tank class, so we are suggested to tank.
What we need now is the ability to do so.

And yes, i agree with the above posted (22 monk here).

I'm sorry but I disagree with you all. The Monk is part of the FIGHTER archetype, not the TANK archetype. We belong to the Monk OR Bruiser part of the tree. Not every fighter is considered a tank. Classes that can wear Vanguard will always have better damage mitigation than light armor classes...simply because of AC. Yes, I did play EQ1 but I don't thik the Monk is supposed to be like the EQ1 monk. What I DO know is that Monks should never be considered as tanks in a grp. We can handle some hits, and hell, even pull aggro off the wiz or cleric if need be, but I do not call myself a tank in the true sense of the word. I wouldn't suggest you give up on your monk until you see what their role will eventually be in the high-end game. Yeah...yeah I know, your lvl 29 which means little in the bigger picture of levels. Wait till you hit 40ish and see if the same thing holds true, I bet it won't. Most class roles begin to change around lvl 35 and transform into something different in the 40+ levels.

I'm not completely sure ( been a while ), but i think it hasnt always been that way. The 139/100 deflection look like another of those "take the easy way out" approaches, MMORPG Devs love so much once release is close ( and you are not a VIP class ). They do however not solve anything and in fact tend to cause more trouble than the initial issue.

While I'm halfway content with the class as it is now, SOE appearantly still havent made up their mind what the Brawlers are supposed to be. The claim to be a tank "equal" to the others and the rather offensive skill list/somewhat lacking defensive skills just dont fit.

yep Dovifat, thats what I am thinking too. there have been numerous posts and arguments about whether we are tanks and it has come back that yes we are according to SOE. this may not be the reality, but it has been quoted by a moderator on this board that we are indeed supposed to tank. as it stands now, and from what GangsterFist is saying, is we don't have the ability to tank as we near 30, and this may be due to the easy out re: the deflection skill. this means currently we somewhere between scouts and other fighters, as we have more hit points but less ac than scouts and lower also lower dps. something interesting to see would be how well a scout of the same level and with comparable equipment tanks.

According to sony we are supposed to be capable of tanking, and they are right, up until lvl 20 or so. After that the monk is decidedly incapable.

Monks are useless as far as I can tell, there isn't anything we can do that someone else can't do better. I'm not sure if I'm going to quit EQ2 (I'm not keen on playing multiple characters) or just continue playing the monk in hopes they fix it by making us a more capable class. Give us something for crying out loud!

I have unfortunate news for all of you. According to the Brawler class guide on this very website, monks are not intended to be main tanks, despite branching off of fighters. Here's what the guide states:


"Group Analysis
A brawler makes a decent main tank, but suffers somewhat from his poor damage mitigation ability. A brawler makes a very good secondary tank, however, using combat arts like Defend to improve the tanking ability of the main tank, and at the same time delivering excellent damage." (emphasis mine)

The design goal of the brawler subclasses, then is not to hold even in tanking ability with crusaders and warriors. It is to off-tank, help the main tank do his job, and crank out damage. In this, we excel.
Message Edited by ForceUser on 11-29-2004 06:32 PM

Sorry Buddy...but your not only disagreeing with everyone else here...but your disagreeing with the very man who played a monk in EQ1 as his Main (AFAIK) and is the very one who told us ALL that Monk's can TANK.

That's not what we are arguing, do you see there where it says "decent" main tank? As you level, you aren't even a "decent" tank. That is the problem.

Wow. Just wow. Monks are exactly what they are in EQ1, plus more. Monks crank out DPS, have GREAT group skills, and are just a great thing to have in a group. If you are grouped with a berserker, BE THE MAIN ASSIST and have the berserker use intervene on you. THIS WAY IF YOU DO GET HIT, THE OTHER TANK TAKES THE DMG! Then, put your DAMAGE DEBUFF on the MT so he doesn't take hits as hard. THEN put your hate lowering buff on the healer and put yourself into a defensive stance.

Is it really that hard to work out strategy here people? Please tell me this: Do you expect enchanters and the like to have DD any were close to that of a wizard? Do you expect a summoner to have crowd control like an enchanter does? Do you expect an SK to tank as good as a guardian? Seriously, get over it. Monks in every single game have not been a main tank and I doubt they ever will be. Monks have always been there for utility and DPS. Just like bards from EQLive, we are not needed in a group, but when we are in a group, we help out ALOT.

Monks in all games take many many levels to become power houses. Expect the same here. If you want to be a tank, then go play a guardian and quit complaining about the monks ability to tank.

P.S. Devs have also said lots of things that ended up not being true such as instances and quests.