Requests from a Master Weaponsmith

CoLD MeTaL wrote:

You misread or misunderstood or misremembered
Currently for WS there will be 48 total weapons to be made, with the two imbues for each weapon, which means there will be a total of 14 recipes per level VERSUS the 6-8 total recipes per level.
You do the math...but I think she just doubled the available recipe count for WS

Rashaak wrote:

I like the changes that Domino has proposed - the blessed imbue gives Healers an option to get benefits to their primary role (healing) the gleaming would benefit them if they are doing damage, but the blessed is better if they need to improve their healing potential, and the second imbued type provides WS more recipes and a bit of a bigger market. The two imbues provide casters with an option of what type of proc they would like to use for their play style. Situational I could see my dirge keeping 2 of each type of procs on me depending on the situation that I'm in.
There are actually 12 classes capable of using ranged weapons, and one that relies on ranged weapons for the majority of their attacks. So in fights where it is deemed ‘ranged only' people would carry extra of these items in their inventory to swap out and get the benefit of the proc - what's the difference if it procs direct damage or if it procs an effect that adds to your damage? The results are the same

Wodreaux@Nektulos wrote:

I know how many classes are capable of using ranged, but only ONE class rely's on ranged for their Damage, so it's no surprise why you would like the new proc effect on ANY type of attack, but as I said, that means there is really no purpose for having two imbues.
Again, the reason for the two imbues was to give casters/healers an option to use an Imbue. If the DD effect is off ANY attack, then that means there's no longer an issue, there-for no need for a second imbue.
The second imbue is acting like a buff, so simply adding a buff for ranged attack to increase the existing high damage of a Ranged user, which there is only ONE class that bases Damage off of Ranged, keeps them more in-line without overpowering them.
As it stands with this change, this is what will happen:
A ranger has two gleaming imbued weapons equipped + an imbued ranged bow.
He has now increased his chances of proc'ing 3 DD attacks on each attack even though he's using his bow. So take that 200-500 damage proc and times it by 3. You have 600-1500 damage added for a primary ranged attack user. That is over powered, since at most any other player will be able to do 400-1000 damage from the proc with two imbued weapons equipped.
Of the 12 classes you spoke of, only 6 actually have 'ranged' attack CA's, and of those 6, only two class's have more than one ranged CA. Of those two, one of 'em has double than the other. Which means that one (ranger) has a higher chance at proc'ing all 3 damage proc's from imbues vs any other class in the game. This makes it overpowered and will be nerfed inside of a month gauranteed.
So keep the DD proc for melee combat always (which is the way it already is in-game). And the second imbue being a buff imbue anyways, add a Stifle and buff for ranged combat to benefits those with Ranged attacks as well.

Noaani wrote:

I don't like this. It doesn't seem very heroic. I don't recall reading fantasy literature where the lead tough-guy always runs around the monster while everyone else in his party attacks the monster's back. Occasionally, sure. But not always.

As a Berserker, I'm often serving as the secondary tank and sometimes even as DPS. In those situations, I want to be attacking the monster head-on. I don't want to see nothing but butts and the backs of heads. Even my troubadour only has one or two positional attacks; I don't want to be forced into the butts-and-backs view there either.



On another note, I'm still puzzled by the relative dearth of axe options. There are only three one-handed axes and one two-handed axe on the chart, while there are many many more swords, daggers, and hammers. One of the things I love about EQ2 is the number of axe options my Berserker has; this new scheme is going to cut that list dramatically from the way it is now on live. I realize things change, but this is removing a lot of the choice that my character currently can make in weapon selection while retaining his preferred two-axe style.


Powers &8^]

Powers wrote:

Flipping mobs is a basic mechanic, mostly for scout benefit, but also to avoid frontal AE's on squishys. If you're not turning the mobs, your scouts have to run around themselves or else sacrifice substantial dps (especially assassins), and this often pulls in adds when in tight places. This isn't really the place to debate whether that should be or not, it's just the way the game is at present, and the thread's about marketability of products, so you cater to the majority of your customers.

My concern with the positional proc is that rogues have positional attacks that make them get in front of the mob as well, which could trigger the taunt. They have ways of dealing with hate, so it's probably not an issue since I think their basic detaunt's larger than the proc.

There are times where you can't flip the mob, like when trying to go get quest updates without having to clear every room on the way down, so you just fight mobs in place with everyone together. I don't know about other people, but I have multiple weapons even on my casters that can be swapped out, usually because of procs for the situation. Again, probably not a significant issue.

Powers wrote:

Turning a mob is a basic skill for all tanks to use. It prevents from frontal AE's hitting the casters/healers and such. It also prevents from add's targeting members of the group that will die if the wind blows on them the wrong way And is a skill to use when scouts are present where the majority of their attacks require them to be flanking or behind the target.

Rashaak wrote:

I'm now curious as to why you are using rangers as an excuse to not change these procs? Why is it that you don't want Ranged Attacks to proc from these weapons besides ‘it doesn't happen now'? It won't be just rangers that get an opportunity to have multiple procs go off, it will be any class that uses more than one of these items.
My dirge can get two earrings that proc direct damage from spell attacks, I can get a wrist item or two that do the same thing. My dirge is also almost as capable as a ranger is of kiting a mob and with the new setup of MC weapons each spell will have an opportunity to proc 7 items (two weapons, two earring, two wrists, and a bow), my Ranger will only get 3 chances why don't you think dirges are overpowered now?
I honestly don't think an extra 200-500 damage proc 1.8 times each minute will ‘greatly overpower' anyone, adding a consistent 1000 damage every minute will only raise your dps by 16 - so if Rangers are using all 3 weapons (which I'm not sure many rangers would actually use the imbued bow as there are much better options out there) their dps goes up 48dps if they get a consistent 3000 more damage each minute - it could be more it could be less depending on the number of procs each minute. All this added proc does for rangers is finally gives them access to gear that can proc damage from a rangers primary attack, which most other classes have had access to some form of direct damage proc from their primary attack for years now.
Why would rangers have a higher chance of procing all 3 than other classes will?

Kasar wrote:

But compare it to today's weapons.

Today: Fighter gets X units of hate (via damage) every time his weapon procs. Rogue gets X units of hate (via damage) every time his weapon procs.

Future: Fighter gets 2X units of hate (via damage+taunt) every time his weapon procs. Rogue gets about zero hate (damage-taunt) most of the time, and 2X units of hate (damage+taunt) on the few procs when he's in front of the mob using his poke-in-the-eye attack.

So, at worst, the proc change means "no change in total relative hate," between the rogue and fighter.

The only people who might have to change their behavior are the lower-level robe-wearers who aren't used to proccing weapons. (Pretty sure all the high-60s-and-beyond ones have had at least a Grizzfazzle Stick, if not a better proc-on-spells weapon, already, so they're in the same place as scouts are today.)

Wodreaux@Nektulos wrote:

*throws'em a tinfoil hat*
Cause I like think Rangers are so effin UBER, like ZOMGZ!!!! So I like hatez 'em and stuffz!!! frellin rangers!!

I have absolutely nothing against Rangers. They are however the only class that their primary attack is ranged attack. A long time ago...right around the time of KoS (can't remember exactly when, but I know it was '06), the mechanic was changed to where Imbued Melee weapons would not proc off of ranged attacks. In the interim Imbued bows and throwing weapon bags were introduced. Therefor still giving ranged users the ability to proc off of ranged attacks.
Now we are talking about changing it back? I do not think it is the right way to go, and is just asking for a nerf after a month of being introduced. Heres another thing to consider as well, they would also have to change the mechanic to allow ranged proc items to proc off of melee attacks as well.
The basic point your missing I think is, when your using a Ranged ATTACK, your MELEE weapons are not even out on the playing field, unlike armor/items that are. This is why they can proc, but the majority of those require some type of action from the mob, or apply a buff. Not many proc a damage.
So why should imbued melee weapons proc off of a ranged attack?

Domino, could you please verify, or have one of the other mechanics devs verify, whether these procs will be triggered by ranged auto-attack and/or ranged CAs so these guys will leave it alone or make a new thread?

On a successful attack
Any melee attack, ranged attack, damage-based combat art

GU38 made it so that:

• Ranged weapons will no longer trigger procs on weapons equipped in the primary or secondary slot.

People have told me that this change was reversed with GU44, but I can't see it in the update notes. The only things that are relevant are:

• Strength Imbued rings will now proc from ranged attacks
• The Cacophany of Blades line will now proc from ranged attacks

This has very little to do with these weapons and Gleaming Strike in particular. It is a general decision that affects *all* "On a successful attack" procs across the board. Did the GU44 changes affect procs of this type? Or just these couple specific procs/spells?

Thanks.

Rashaak wrote:

Ranged attacks are about the only attack in the game that do not trigger damage effects on items that fit in primary/secondary slots. Come to think of it I don't think I have seen any earrings/wrists that proc damage effects from ranged attacks. Although there are several jewelry items that will proc slow/heal/stun/stifle from ranged attacks. There are weapons that proc effects (damage and beneficial effects) from spells and heals that fit into primary/secondary slots - these are not out on the playing field in the hands of a caster, if that caster is not autoattacking. If there are items that fit in primary/secondary slots that can proc damage for 23 other classes in the game why is one class left out?
Honestly I could care less if the item designed to fit in my primary/seconday slots that proced damage from ranged attacks was a weapon/symbol or ‘Dull stick of no damage' as long as it procs from ranged attacks. I think the implementation of this proc into MC weapons was just easier than creating new item.
What I would love to see is the following - I know its overboard but I'm wishing here so I'm including all the things stats that a Ranger would like to see:
‘Ranged Stick of Whoop Em Up Really Good'
Damage 1-2 Delay 6.0 sec (if they need this to put into primary/sec slot)
+50 STR, +50 INT +90 health +90 power
+2 Ranged Crit
+2 Ranged Double Attack
+2 DPS
+2 Attack Speed
On a successful Ranged attack item has a 1.8 chance to cast ‘You Been Whooped Up'
- inflict 200-500 damage on target
- decrease hate by 300
- stun target for 1.0 sec *if target is not epic
Edit - Devs Fell free to use the 'You Been Whooped Up' as a proc description if you like - It's not TM as far as I know

sliderhouserules wrote:

She's already said it will be on ANY attack, which includes ranged and spells. And like I said already it defeats the purpose of having two different imbues. My proposal is something like this:
Blessed Incarnadine XXXXXXX
Proc will do:
Increases Damage Amount by 120 for 12 seconds
Increases Healing Amount by 120 for 12 seconds
Increases Ranged Attack by 60 for 12 seconds
Stifles Target


Imbued Incarnadine XXXXXXXX
Proc will do:
Lowers hate by 900 if flanking or behind
Raises hate by 900 if in front
and DD proc for 200-500 damage off of MELEE attacks only

This is just an example obviously...but it would put both imbue types on the same level and not take anything away from Ranged attack based attacks or casters. As you stated, GU38 changed the way melee proc's off of ranged attack and there was an obvious reason to do it, I'm sure they didn't just do it just to do it.
But, in the end, whatever is decided...it's fine by me....I'm not going to argue you it anymore.
But anyways...


We now have (if I did my math correctly) 48 WS weapons and 10 WW weapons. Which add's up to 144 recipes for WS and 30 WW recipes with the two imbues.
Thats a hefty change of available recipes for both crafts I think.
That equals to roughly 14 total recipes for 6 levels, and 15 total recipes for 5 levels for WS
3 total recipes per level for WW

Not bad at all!

A few questions though:
With the pre-existing weapons in-game already will they be updated with the stat/delay/damage changes associated with this change?
For WS/WW already at level 80 with all their recipes, will they have to 'relearn'these recipes (go and buy them again) or will the recipe lists be auto-updated with the change?
I'm sensing Armorsmiths, Tailors and Jewelers are salavating at the mouths that there are two imbues for weapons, will there also be a change to these crafts to incorporate two different imbues as well?
With the re-itemization down through the levels will this include recipes for Blood Ore, Whetstones and Throwing Weapons?


P.S. I still feel the Katar and Claws need to be added for Bruisers/Monks.

Rashaak wrote:

1. no, the stat and type changes are so big that it will not be possible to directly upgrade the existing weapons - people might end up with totally different stat combos than what they bought, or even weapons they can't use any more. Existing weapons will remain the same, new ones made after the game update will be the new ones.

2. if you already have the recipes then you won't need to buy anything new, the recipe books will just be updated in your memorized recipes list.

3. no plans at this time (though hex dolls and jewelry are also on the list to eventually look at). Armorers and tailors already had all their mastercrafted stats upgraded.

4. most likely not at this time, there's only a week left before our cut off date, and much still to do.

PS. check the post of the weapon stats.

Archonix will be visiting this thread once he escapes from his current meetings to clarify on exactly how things work or don't work for rangers/ranged attacks, in answer to sliderhouserules.

Edited cuz I'm a ****-monkey.
Thanks for reducing my ignorance on the subject and catching me up to date.

bobdbutcherer wrote:

In the interests of saving Domino the time of replying (and incidentally saving you the time of actually reading a thread you're posting to):

Armor has already been revamped, highly unlikely she'll look at it again any time soon.

Changing the imbues for bows is something she'd like to do in line with these changes, but this set of changes is focusing on WS weapons, and to make the full lineup complete she's including all the WW weapons that go in PRI/SEC slots.

Jewelry is on her list to look at.

She answered at least two of these points in the post immediately before your's (was reading that one too much?).

[edit: I came across rather harshly here, but you could easily skim Domino's post list and see what she's said on the subject, would take less time than posting and then waiting for an answer.]

This is a small request that's only effective at the last tier, but what about the new stones that weaponsmiths can make that are obtained from the RoK faction recipes?

Currently, these require a level 75+ item to be usable on. Mastercrafted weapons are level 72. Prior to this, since MC was really limited in usefulness, it wasn't an issue. But the current changes seem like they're going to make MC more of a choice.

Will these new stones be adjusted so players don't have to rely just on dropped items to be able to use them? This could potentially make weaponsmiths more marketable, as we would be able to offer these stones to a wider base of customers.

Barring that, will we get any sort of option to gain recipes to craft level 75+ weapons so these stones we faction up to make can be used on weapons we create?

Gwyneth@Najena wrote:

This never really occurred to me, I've never tried to apply the stones to my own weapons...

Definitely not the thread for this, but can the level 75 stones be lowered to level 72?

Some extremely minor questions, but ones that I'm concerned about for my up-and-coming WS:

1) Is this change going to be done first in T8, and the other tiers brought in line in successive GUs, much like Armor/Tailor imbues are being handled?

2) Since all new weapons are being created for these, is it possible that all new recipes will be used as well, preferably ones with a lower hard metal requirement?

Powers wrote:

The whole tanking mechanic has never borne much resemblance to fantasy literature or reality. This does not make it any worse.

If you are acting as DPS there is an advantage to attacking from behind - most mobs are easier to hit that way.

Lodrelhai wrote:

Domino wrote that that was what she was thinking of doing.