Raid Progression Screwy: Boost HM Drunder Loot.

Here is the issue with HM Drunder plain and simple, for things that you can ONLY get from HM Drunder that will make a REAL difference in we killed this mob or not, that drops out of those zones, is THREE war runes. Two of those war runes only drop from HM Vallon himself, of which he can decide to drop not even one of them when you kill him, and worse yet, it works best when your entire raid force has one of two of them. Other stuff is nice, but you can get something that works somewhere else, while these war runes mean progression kills or not in PoW.

Just to give an example, and this actually happened to us the other night. We went and killed Hard Mode Ragebourne for the 2nd or 3rd time. He dropped a fighter weapon and noone even rolled on it. The raid leader had to point out that the crit chance might be needed later on and someone rolled on it and put it in their bags.
Hard mode Drunder loot should NOT be being bagged because it is either worse than Skyshrine easy mode or at best equal. The fights are far harder and the loot that is rewarded should reflect that.
Going into a zone and working on progression and finally killing a new mob only to sigh when the chest is opened is pathetic and will not keep people interested. Fix the risk/reward in these zones so that the sense of accomplishment isn't immediately ruined when we either alt the gear or mute it please.

bgnjug wrote:

Don't even need to scale the loot, but I'll explain why it's tough to do. A lot of players have noticed how the loot the past few years in EQ2 has a "spreadsheet" feel to it. All the different items have similiarities (similar stats and similar effects). Firstly, it's cheaper to make items generic. Secondly, it's hard to make software-generated items feel unique and personal. When a developer codes an item-generation algorithm they have to juggle all of these stats and effects and what this usually does is waters it down. It becomes numerically perfect but void of creativity and spirit. Even Diablo 1/2/3 had to add item sets and artifacts because the random items don't have a special flavor to them. When you consider all of the item effects and stats in EQ2, you see that it's very difficult to balance it effectively in an algorithm so that you can scale it. So in order to accurately scale you would have to examine each item individually. There're thousands of items. This means that scaling old(er) content is very time consuming and not worth the sweat invested.
What's easier is just to add a progresion window. I've mentioned this in some of my posts. Allow guilds to make custom progression paths. Have a master list of progression points (all expansions and adventure packs). The guilds can select from this master list and add to their own custom list. This custom list then will be accessible by everyone in the guild. Raid progression points could be guild-wide (not character-specific). Smaller progression points could be character-specific. For example, when you join a guild for the first time, they might require you to kill 15 different progression points (that they've listed for their new members) as a requirement to gain the next rank. These progression points could be customized by the guild and each individal guild member would work on their progression path to gain rank. The guild-wide progression would just be a means to keep track of what the guild has done and where it's in its completion.
People not in guilds maybe could select from a list of pre-fabricated progression paths. There might be the golden path or several other developer-created paths. The developers would select from a master-list of soloable targets/instances/etc and add these to a progression line and name it "Eagles Sanctuary" because it's specifically made for rangers. Alternatively, there could be a progression path that randomizes the selectiosn it makes from each progression point category.
Doing older content isn't about the items, it's about the experience. So you don't have to scale the loot. You don't have to go back and balance it. You can just leave it as is. A player might create an alt and do the progression paths (in the older content) just to see things they missed or don't know about. It would be a great way to have a (long-term) tour of the many different expansions added to EQ2. This is a better form of progression than a progression server.
This is more about outdated content than it's modern content. It's about making outdated content more accessible to the kinds of players that would do it for hte personal experience alone. They want to see the lore, the dungeons, the characters, etc. They don't care as much about how good the experience or money or items are.
Right now there's no direction for a progression player. You either have to look this up online or you have to already know or wade through the game manually to find out. There's also a golden path that the developers have created:
http://eq2.zam.com/wiki/The_Golden_Path
But that's different from what I'm talking about in this post. The Golden Path I linked is about getting to max level and using modern content in a developer-driven way. Its primary goal is to reduce hangups and smoothen the progression in a non-obvious way in more modernized content. What I'm talking about is more obvious (a progression window) and can still smoothen the progression, but it doesn't rely on modern content nor is its goal (necessarily) to get you to max level.
Maybeit could be called the "Chronologies" window. So your targets through the different expansions has a broader purpose - to teach you the history and lore of the EQ2 world without other motives involved.
I feel there's a lack of accessibility. My suggestions might fall short, but I think I'm right about the lack of accessibility for someone doing older content (just to do it; not for the rewards). Sorry if I confuse.

Geothe wrote:

QFE to get the point back on track given the lengthy derails.

I am glad to see quality Dev feedback on such an important and key matter for the quality of this game.
.......
Oh wait......

kalaria wrote:

They are too busy cranking out SC stuff. Case in point: people who like to decorate houses were asking over and over for hafling-themed housing. Enough of them jumped on board and someone at SOE took the time to yank out part of Enchanted Lands and made a hafling-style shire house...minus a door and made it only 2 rooms. Even a halfbaked attempt to make something people were asking for happened...yet raiders have been bringing up the gear itemization fail, and this topic goes unanswered and not even acknowledged.

On the bright side, at least the text for some quests will be polished quickly. It must be nice getting a reply within 2 hours.
http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=518324
Thankfully, it's for a facet of the game that everyone cares deeply about. We all know everyone reads every word of every quest, and no one equips gear or values a pragmatic approach to itemization/progression.

Are you trying to say that typos, grammar errors, and the Coldwind King Crab aren't as important as raiding?

Mathrim@Unrest_old wrote:

I am kind of forced to agree. But how do you suggest they nerf drunder/etc to make it more tolerable? And how do you know they don't have a second installment of skyshrine planned to fill in for missing content?
I'm not the one arguing there's missing content. I don't know enough to say there is. But if things are as you say then I have to agree. Going from one place to another and gaining maybe 2 to 6 percent in gear quality while facing difficulty that's 2 to 5 times harder is not going to win anybody over fast. Actually, it could turn off a good bit of em.
My posts about a progression window are kind of a side topic to all this. Assuming that drunder HM/etc are dinosaurs then they were spot on. However, maybe they -do- plan on revamping them. Or they know something you don't.
My guess is they know something you don't. Otherwise, why didn't they just revamp drunder/etc without adding these new skyshrine things? My guess is it was easier somehow to add skyshrine than to revamp drunder Hm/etc.

7foggynites wrote:

This thread isn't about nerfing Drunder as noted in your first question. It's about boosting HM Drunder's loot so that it falls in line with its difficulty and progression.
No offense intended, but please stop taking this discussion on sidebars. You don't know what they have planned, and apparently have no first hand knowledge of the specific zones and loot in question. Speculating in the way you are is not productive, helpful, or consilatory... if any of those things are your intention.

Trynt wrote:

I did say something about nering Drunder hard mode earlier on in the thread but mainly to point out that the difficulty of the zones currently do not match the loot that drops there when compared to Skyshrine. There are a lot of ways of doing this. Removing the X2 debuffs, lowering the overall bosses/adds health, reducing the AE damage, etc.
This is not my preferred choice though. I would prefer to see the loot boosted and in turn boost Hard Mode Skyshrine and Plane of War to fall in line after Drunder Hard Mode.
The issue I see coming from just upgrading the gear though is that to date only 10 guilds have made it through Drunder Hard Modes and of those 10 guilds, 4 have fallen or are in a state of re-orginization. Drunder will be cracked by more people as they gear up from Skyshrine, IF people are still around 2 months from now with Diablo 3, Guild Wars 2, and just boredom setting in. Something needs to be done with Drunder to make it more enticing versus Skyshrine.
As far as the rest of the comments about not know what Sony's plans are.....
Well, thats Sony's fault for not communicating isn't it? Have you seen a single red post that would indicate that they are even acknowledging this as an issue? Have you seen a single red post talking about any new raid zones coming any time soon?
It is not OUR job to cross our fingers, trust in Sony, and continue to pay our monthly fee with the hope that things will get better. It is THEIR job to respond to player concerns and keep the game content moving along smoothly so that they can continue earing cash from us.

Ruckus@Unrest_old wrote:

You know what the funny thing is? One of the prestige houses, The Kromzek one, is dropped from Vallon (EM/HM), yet no one on Crushbone seems to have aqquired it yet. And even if someone did loot it, I highly doubt they'll decorate even a portion of it because their playstyle is raiding, not playing The Sims. Does SoE realize this? I never understood this type of thinking.
And Mathrin, your common sense isn't acceptable on these boards. Grorious moddus of eq2 forums theenk uarr nasty trorr end of rine ding dong bannu.

Trynt wrote:

Yes, the thread is about scaling the loot to the relative dificulty of the encounters. The encounters all fall between EM Skyshrine and HM Skyshrine in difficulty, the rewards should then be atleast on par with EM Skyshrine.
Now, if there was enough content in Skyshrine alone, I'd be ok with saying Drunder is done lets ignore it, but there simply isn't enough raiding content in skyshrine to keep the majority of guilds busy till december.
Sure, for the 1% that have already cleared HM drunder, this change does little for them, but the other 99% of raiders would benefit from the change, and the result would be enough treadmill content to keep people busy for quite some time.
Now as far as nerfing Drunder HM. I don't really like that path, but I would 100% support removal of the x2 debuff mechanic from the zones. Not cause its terribly hard, its just so tedious and not interesting.

So I guess that the Dev team doesn't care about the horrendous state of progression afterall?
Freaking awesome.

Geothe wrote:

They might or might not, all we know is they don't care about communicating on it.

Atan@Unrest wrote:

A lot of time can be wasted communicating too. I remember working on a small proejct with some other goofballs and we spent far too much time chatting and not working. I think of the navy and a ship that's shipwrecked in Antarctica. Somehow they survived and they did it because their captain kept them working - and not talking and making mutiny.
I believe they got plans, but I'm not sure you'll like em. Maybe, maybe not.

7foggynites wrote:

LOL, that may work great for a ship stranded in antartica, but its a pretty poor way for a company to treat its customers.
As a service provider, to choose to not communicate about the issues with their service, is a choice to provide poor support. Companies who fail at support generally fail in the long run.
Alot of impact could made to player retention by just a statement about what their plans are.

7foggynites wrote:

Sure doesn't "waste" a lot of time communicating to do something as very basic as stating:

"Yes, we are aware of this issue and discussing possible corrections internally."

OMG. it took 5 seconds to type that! /gasp.
Yet, with any major progression/itemization issue as of late, there is nothing but stone wall silence and absolutely ZERO adjustments appearing on the patch notes. SoE flat out doesn't give a darn. If its not an addition through Station Cash, may as well forget about any progress now it seems.

So I guess about the only manner that this will be adjusted is when SoE can figure out how to have a progression correction involve purchasing an item from the Station Cash store.... as thats where the only attention seems to be paid now.
Quality.

Atan@Unrest wrote:

As I saw mentioned before, and railed against very hard, their plan is that we are supposed to 'trust' that they are reading our feedback even if they give little to no response.
Obviously this is unacceptable.