Raid Progression Screwy: Boost HM Drunder Loot.

The introduction of Skyshrine raids really has thrown a wrench in raid progression, and worthwhile raids to run in general.
Case in point, HM Drunder zones vs EM SS zones.
Encounters in HM Drunder are vastly more challenging than anything in EM Skyshrine, which you can pretty much sleep through. However, the vast majority of loot drops from EM SS raids are extremely better than HM Drunder loot.
/boggle. That really doesn't make any sense at all. 2 easy mode zones that take 90 minutes to clear (if that!) basicaly have religated HM Drunder to a place to go if you want a challenge, but no tangible reward for completing it. Not to mention those SS instances dont provide squat for content, being cleared so quickly.
HM Drunder gear really needs to be boosted so that it is superior to EM Skyshrine.
That will keep Drunder zones relevant, especially since a lot of guilds never even really cleared content there at all before.
Progression should go EM SkyShrine -> HM Drunder -> HM SS encounters -> PoW.
Upping stats on HM Drunder will expand the viable raid content so there are plenty of zones actually WORTH running instead of the slim pickings that exist now with the introduction of SkyShrine.
Yes, this is probably falling on deaf ears, as it was stated many times when testing, yet generated absolutely zero dev responses, but after raiding a few weeks in SS this is becoming a massive problem.

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=517729

Yeap, deaf ears.

Geothe wrote:

Upping the stats on HM Drunder loot will only make the entitlement crowd demand that they be given access to that llot too, after all they pay subs or buy mounts and play dress up and house with items they buy for SC.
Does HM Drunder loot need to be better? Yes.
Does the entitlement crowd have any rights to it? Not unless they kill it (or it has been killed enough to where loot rights will be sold I guess)
See fixing HM Drunder was ignored for months and months, and you will have to run something for shards, so they expect that you'll be in HM Drunder anyway.

/signed
And itemization should reflect this .....

Dungeon Maker is your content until the Fall update. Infinite content, and itemization doesn't matter!

Problem solved.

While I am not going to disagree that HM drunder is not more difficult than EM skyshrine and having the loot reflect it wouldn't be a bad idea, nothing good is going to come of this. Lets put it like this, they will not buff HM drunder loot again, any time in the past when there was a circumstance even similar to this, they nerfed the easier to get loot, which btw I do not think will happen. But, if people pushed a point like this hard enough and it did happen, all it would do it hurt guilds trying to get through the early DoV part 2 HM's. Right now HM drunder is only run practically for a war rune off of Sullon, blinding light, two war runes off of Vallon, and his bp's. Of course that is all of almost nothing, but those items can be very important for guilds trying to progress in PoW, which of course makes the whole drunder hm thing even more annoying.

I see this kind of thing in other MMORPGs. I don't really think you'll get what you want. It's not an itemization problem because it's designed to be this way. I think it's a rapid form of mudflation or something. It's not bad unless you get bent up about not NEEDING to do drunder (as much). Otherwise, you just follow the golden path and all is good.
I'd like them to create a progression window or a progression category in the achievements window. This way there's a way to structure things in-game for progression players (and not out of game, via google). This is a mistake that many MMORPGs make. They just ignore the older content and mostly ignore progression players too and just shoot for the biggest bang for the buck. But if you want to be a GREAT game then you need to polish it and that includes paying some respects to progression players. The difference between great games and ok games are things like this. The little things.
I wrote about this here:
http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...=516954#5742839
Honestly, I feel your pain, but it should be obvious to you that this is the way they want it. They've had lots of time to see the problem (if that's what it's). So I doubt it's a itemization error or oversight. It's intended.

7foggynites wrote:

Between EXPANSIONS, yes, this is something that happens quite often and is unavoidable.
However, SkyShrine is not an expansion, and it doesn't have enough content to support gameplay on its own, it is a PART OF DoV (as is Drunder). Yet, it has negated all the pre-PoW content with its itemization, while at the same time its not sufficient on its own to support raiding schedules.
As with a LOT of things at SoE lately, it demonstrates poorly thought out changes with a complete disconnect from entire portions of the player base.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. That's the situation going on here. If they nerf, there'll be an uproar. Players have got used to going to skyshrine and the only people who're really mad about this are the ones who already went through drunder/etc or want to NEED the progression. If they boost drunder/etc (up to pow or inc.) then it creates much more work than is worthwhile to do (that's a lot of content to adjust), and there's no gaurantee that people who're doing skyshrine now will want to go through drunder/etc (up to pow). So I think the best thing they can do is leave as is.
Lessons of this nature were leanred by developers way back when MUDs were popular. So I didn't just recently find this out nor did I invent it on the spot. These developers have their hands tied behind their backs.
But I still think adding a progression window or progression category to the achievements list is a great idea to handle all of the mudflated content (every mmorpg produces it). Why ignore it? There's a sizeable population that likes to go through older content. It's not huge and it's not even close to competing with the majority, but it's not so small either. And again, the difference between great games and ok games are things like this. This even applies to movies and other things. When you dig under the surface of something great, you find polish and depth. When you remove the surface layer of an ok game, you find a heap of dust and mess that's been swept under and forgotten about.
There're bugs that'll eat the dust that collects (they'll make use of it). You just need to figure out how to give them access. And that's where my point stands. By adding more structure to old(er) progression, you give progression players more access. As things are right now, players have to go online to find out where to progress. Or they must already know.
I know that you must find my comments infuriating because it doesn't help YOU. I can't help everyone. I'm looking at this problem you and others comment about from the perspective of a progression player. My apology.

7foggynites wrote:

You're missing a pretty big piece IMO. Skyshrine raid zones can be cleared in a single night of raiding. So maybe if your schedule is right your guild can spend 2 days a week killing it. Then what?
How long will you keep a raidforce interested in doing Drunder HM where the encounters are 5x as hard as SS and offer sub-par loot?

Atan@Unrest wrote:

This is hurting raiding. Its hard to want to run zones that the loot doesnt even go to raid alts. This is by far the worse exp for raiding. The SS EM mobs fall over in a stiff breeze, yet drop loot better than HM drunder.
Buffing HM drunder loot is simple and very good solution to the issue. IF SS is truely a part of velious as a whole then the loot should be looked at as a whole and relate somewhat to difficulty.
SS EM > Drunder HM > SS HM > POW this make sense....

Atan@Unrest wrote:

I've read that the loot in Drunder HM (and the series of raids leading up to PoW) gives the player more CC (critical chance) and there's something else too (runes or shards or wards or slots or something). And from another post I saw that the stats added in the skyshrine EM loot had a cap that was easier to reach (making it less valuable). I'm not an expert because I'm still a new player in the game - heck I am a few days away from even logging back in after a 3 week break. But there is some incentive, just not as much as there used to be. And I think you're talking about Skyshrine EM (raids). So, from what I have read, that means there're still a lot of players doing Skyshrine that're not at the level of raiding the biggest stuff yet. If we were in the EQ2 offices, we could probably tally the numbers and see that the most hardcore raiders were a minority population and the vast majoirty were either levelling up (mains or alts) or were doing smaller bosses/missions/etc. So this means that anybody complaining about this is probably in a minority and isn't a huge factor in company decisions.
1) Give hardcore raiders some tough zones for 6-8 months
2) Release easier raid content to catch up lower tier raiders/players
3) Recycle
As I stated already, looks like mudflation. If you're right that the most hardcire will be out of things to do then this way of looking at it is wrong. From my angle (and lack of experience), it's hard to see what's up from down.
...I could argue that harcore raiders make alts when they hit a content gap.
...It could be also that hardcore raiders won't run out of things to do on their main(s).

7foggynites wrote:

I initially subscribed to this as well. After farming more gear out of SS, I'm able to get 420 CC without even adorning CC and not using Drunder HM gear.
I can easily reach PoW CC requirements just by adorning, so I don't really need any of the higher CC gear in drunder HM, but I'll agree with you, on some slots, the Drunder stuff has more CC. But since its not actually needed, it isn't really relevant.

as a person whos done all 3 HM drunder zones and cleared my way into PoW, the idea of having to go back and start doing drunder again, honestly makes me want to quit.
theres 2 things - I am done with drunder, why should I have to go back again? 6-8 months learning and killing and farming in there has already burnt me out on the zones.
why should you get some huge advantage in there then I had? isnt the fact that EM SS gear is nearly PoW gear, mins 1 crit bonus/potentcy enough? I had to clear it with Kael gear which is far less then you get now.
and you talk of clearing SS zones in one day - well, why arent you working on HM dag, ikt, doz? sevalak? that 3rd zone that I cant pronounce but starts with a V....
because your not working on this content, doesnt mean they should just redo old content for you.

This is just a suggestion, but why isn't all raid content, and I mean ALL, from every level cap, made to scale to player level and an actual set of game progression achievements added to the game. All they have to do is incorporate the scaling feature, to the highest level char in the raid, and make the loot tables comparable to whatever the "good" loot is at the particular tier your running. They could even beef up the older content to offer harm modes and challenge modes. The content is already there, the devs just have to make it worthwhile to players to run it. I man this game is pretty vast and has a ton of content. i would wager the most people never see half or better of this game and proly less when you're talkin just raid content. Most people haven't been here since day one. And with the constant PL-ing of toons and what not... just seems an easy way to have more available yet viable content that still pays off and allows for a braoder, fuller experience of the game.

Kunaak wrote:

First off, noone said you had to go back and do Hard Mode Drunder again. If you prefer to work on PoW and Hard Mode Skyshrine fights, then by all means, please do.
That doesn't change the fact that the difficulty difference between Easy Mode Skyshrine and Drunder Hard Mode is probably in the neighborhood of 3 to 5 times harder for Drunder. Guilds that were struggling to break into Drunder Hard Modes pre Skyshrine are, for the most part, not going to step back into Hard Mode Drunder when the loot there is barely a negligible upgrade from Easy Mode Skyshrine. Besides progression and being able to stick a feather in their hats, what incentive is there to go back to any Kael or Drunder zone? Mass death and repair bills when they could easily alt farm Skyshrine for better loot doesn't really make a whole lot of sense.
You completed it when it was set at the hardest difficulty level. Congratulations. Seriously. I'm not trying to be a jerk here. I respect that you did that but lets be honest and look at the numbers here. To date, only 10 guilds have cleared Hard Mode Drunder in the last year.
Thats 10 guilds out of 256 that are tracking. 10 guilds. Only 39 have completed Sullons. 18 have complete Tallons.
96 Guilds have cleared Easy Mode Skyshrine and more are adding every day.
As it stands now, DOV 1.0 content will pretty much be ignored and forgotten by a majority of the playerbase unless something is done to make this content more appealing to the rest of the non uber elite raiding guilds. Your choice is to leave the content as it is and let it become nothing but a ghost town. Our hope is that by re-tuning it, it can be opened and more accessable to a larger section of the playerbase. We don't want to be stuck in just Skyshrine content for the next 6 months. There is only 2 raid zones!!!! We would like to make headway in the old zones but lets be honest here. The risk/reward for Hard Mode Drunder just isn't there anymore. Easy mode DoV 1.0 or Hard Mode Kael? Don't make me laugh. Skyshrine instance gear is better.
As far as your comment about working on Skyshrine Hard Modes, you are being kind of facetious and completely skewing those fights to try and justify your argument. The only guilds that have killed any Hard Mode Skyshrine mobs are guilds that have cleared Drunder Hard Mode for months and are in PoW or dang close to it. Those fights require months and months of gearing up in order to attempt them. You and I both know that.
It will take 4 to 5 months of farming the 2 skyshrine zones twice a week in order to attempt those fights. The logical course of raiding direction would be to go back to Drunder Hard Modes to help supplement the gear and offer up some variety, but as I've already pointed out, Hard Mode Drunder isn't a friendly place. So where does that leave us? A lot of raiding guilds are already reducing their raiding schedule from 4/5 days to 2/3 because people aren't interested in Drunder. With the lack of viable raiding content and the upcoming summer slump, raid force attrition is going to be horrid. Diablo 3 next week and Guild Wars 2 next month will be a pretty heavy drain on the playerbase.
We either do something to address the content now and hope it keeps players interested enough until Decemeber, or we cross our fingers and pray that all of these other factors don't run the playerbase off. I know which option I would choose.................................................
There are basically 2 options to adjust Drunder Hard Mode. Either leave the difficulty as is but increase the quality of the gear to get people interested again or leave the gear as it is but nerf the fights so they are more accessible to guilds that are completing Skyshrine easy mode. You shouldn't have any complaints with the first option since the gear you already got from HM Drunder would get an upgrade without you having to do anything. The second option will probably upset you, but if it isn't done, then a lot of guild might still skip drunder due to the gear being negligible versus Skyshrine.
I think a combination of both options would be appropriate.

no guild that calls itself a progression guild will ignore content, even if its old, if the gear is worth doing.
you cannot ask to upgrade drunder gear, and assume people will simply not do it cause its old - but at the same time, this kinda thing creates alot of animosity within the game and guilds, cause we simply dont want to redo drunder. if you been through drunder, and cleared it, your probably sick of it and wanting something new.
theres new content there, your complaint simply highlights that your choosing to not work on it.
if the arguement is you cant try plane of war, then simply put your efforts into vallons.

Kunaak wrote:

How many guilds ignored Underfoot Depths completely after DoV came out? Why did it get completely ignored? Because the gear sucked compared to DoV 1.0. You can say all you want about progression guilds and how they call themselves, but the plain truth of the matter is that it's mostly about the gear.
So. In response to your first sentence since you point blank put "if the gear is worth doing."
Do you consider Drunder Hard Mode gear and the difficulty it takes to acquire it to be worthy enough versus Skyshrine Easy Mode gear and the challenge it requires?
That is the heart of the discussion and I am point blank telling you (in my opinion) that the majority of those 96 guilds and more incoming that are completing Skyshrine Easy Mode look at Drunder Hard Mode and say..."No thanks. It's not worth the time and effort for that gear." I can tell you first hand and I'm sure so can others here, that when our raid leaders say, lets go work on Drunder Hard Mode again, the entire raid forces groans and sighs. It isn't fun and it doesn't offer the same thrill and desire for gear since Skyshrine hit. You keep trying to insinuate that DoV 1.0 content is still relevant when compared to DoV 2.0, but besides a few specific items like the breastplate and war runes, nothing besides Plane of War is relevant.
Once again you completely ignore the fact that "choosing to not work on new content" isn't the same as the content being worth the time/effort invested. You cannot work on Skyrhine Hard Modes unless you spend months gearing up from Skyshrine Easy Mode or Drunder Hard Mode. So that sticks raid forces with 2 choices. Farm 2 Skyshrine zones repeatedly for months on end until the entire raid force is ready for Skyshrine Hard Mode, or send those raid forces to Drunder Hard Mode for fights that are 5x harder but reward gear that is sometimes worse, mostly equivalent, or at best 5 to 10% better.
Noone is asking to try Plane of War immediately. I think everyone in this thread understands and can reason out that Plane of War is the end game and requires a completely geared out raid force. What we are asking for is that the raid progression be balanced out and that risk/reward be put back into line since the introduction of Skyshrine. The challenge of Drunder Hard Mode and the gear rewarded from it does not merit the increased difficultly when compared to the challenge of Skyshrine and the gear we are seeing.

now you simply dont make sense....
what does UFD have to do with drunder? its not the same situation.
DoV IS this expansion, skyshrine IS the same expansion.
UFD was a different expansion, and the gear reflected that. so comparing Drunder to UFD is not the same thing. in that case its obvious guilds would not go back and do it.
the fact that you have EM SS gear, which is 95% as good as PoW gear, gives you one MASSIVE advantage in drunder that we never had. you should be plowing down that content, unless you simply arent willing to learn the strats and do them properly.
on top of all this - you constantly dodge my question - you can kill EM dagarn, so why arent you working on HM dagarn - you can get to sevalak, why arent you working on sevalak? the contents there - you just sound like your actively trying to avoid the content, and it surprises you that drunder isnt a push over with your new gear.
drunder has been nerfed to absolute oblivion from when we first killed things like generals, tallons, haldane - that + the fact you have faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar better gear now, then we did when we first went in there with HM kael gear, gives you one hell of a massive advantage.

Kunaak wrote:

Skyshrine is the same expansion and yet the gear is way better than all of the previous content except Plane of War and you see absolutely nothing wrong with this? This is the entire point of the argument?
Then you even go as far as saying its 95% as good as PoW gear and yet we should be working on Drunder Hard modes that are 5x as hard but offer worse gear? How does that make any logical sense? It's a waste of time gear wise for the effort involved and you know it.
Why would anyone spend hours each night learning and dieing on new fights just to have the gear go to alts or transmutes when they could instead run Skyshrine raids on their alts and pick up 20 new pieces of gear that are better than Drunder Hard Mode? You see nothing wrong with this?
I haven't doged any question. I've point blank answered it but you refuse to acknowledge the answer. To work on Hard Modes you need your entire raid force geared up to have the necessary hit points and crit chance to attempt the content. You know it for a fact yet refuse to acknowledge it. You cant just run Skyshrine once and say..."Yay. Lets go kill hard modes that require 390 crit chance when the raid force is at 320-330 average."
It isn't that simple and you know that perfectly well.
Do we have a massive advantage from when it was first released? Sure. And so do you. I think anyone with an ounce of honesty can admit that the zones were tuned too difficult and needed nerfs along with bug fixes. The fact that there are still only 10 guilds that have completed Drunder and ZERO that have completed PoW is a testament to that.
The only difference in the situation currently is that we still have months of farming ahead for more hit points and crit chance in order to move further into progression. All we are asking for is that Drunder Hard Mode be brought back into line so that it is a reasonable option for working on progression versus the waste of time it is now. Who really wants to spend 3 or 4 hours a night working on a new mob when that mob drops meh loot and we could have gotten 20 other pieces during that time with less of a headache.