PvP Time-Locked Server Discussion Thread

This is your opinion and not necessarily fact. There was a ton of PVP locking prior to when aa points even came into the game. Just because you didn't see it that way or didn't participate in it, doesn't mean it did not happen and was not popular.

We can go round and round with this but the bottom line is PVP was huge for years when level locking was allowed.

Why eliminate choices in the game? If players don't want to play at max level, it's their choice for whatever reason. If you force them to and they don't want to then they leave the game. Someone mentioned earlier how it's not good for the game for someone to level lock because they won't quest or harvest and such. What if they don't want to? What if they want to keep that toon locked and advance in the game on another toon? It's a very narrow perspective to force paying players to play the game as you see fit. What if I want to farm wailing caves and black burrow over and over again? Someone who is not paying my sub is telling me that I can't lock and do what I want? I will pass thx.

for anyone who never participated in the level locking expierence to degrade or demeanor it...this just doesn't make sense to me...I can remember being a level 27 locked coercer back in 2006-2007 (with my main at lvl 70) and having so much fun going out in groups of 3-4 and hunting the Qeynos guilds in antonica...We got a lot of action and A LOT of pvp...This was some of the best times for me that I can remember...sure the raiding and geting gear at max level was fun too (a lot of fun in eof) but it didnt deter people from playing max level did it? When i got bored of high level, I always had low lvl pvp to expiereinece. Running through fallen gate or storm hold or ruins of varsoon....finding pvp or bots in there was awesome...don't take level locking away from the game.

I was there from launch day on Nagafen, and there was NO level locking, NO AA slider when Kingdom of Sky and Nagafen launched. AAs were only added later on. The servers were by far the fullest before level locked twinks came along, and many people quit over them.

I have already outlined in painstaking detail how lockers basically take themselves right out of the population because they don't need to team, gear up, quest, harvest or even buy things from the market anymore, besides the newbie griefing issue.

Quite frankly, anyone who wants to lock and twink should not be asking for a whole server: A whole server of zones, maps, quests, dungeons, crafting, gear and skills through every tier is useless to locked twinks, who don't get involved with any of that. An open PvP server in EQ2 is 100 amazing levels of zones, quests, bosses, mobs, crafting, harvesting AND open PvPing across all the zones too! Just because someone only wants to participate in one tiny level and one tiny aspect of the game, it should not make the other 99% of the game so continually abusive to everyone else who wants to experience it all while they PvP that they leave the server.

Someone leveling through the game is not going to be able to twink the way a locker does, and the discrepancy between the two is way too large in EQ2. Maybe that is part of the problem right there.

Maybe Daybreak should put in dueling on this PvP server and then not allow level locking/shutting off XP. That would solve your problem and not ruin things for all the new players and those who want to level normally through this whole great game while they open PvP.

I have also mentioned how flying/leaping mounts, too much instancing/guild hall hiding away, BGs, PvP gear and the AA slider have all killed open PvP on Nagafen.

It's up to Daybreak to poll all players to see what they want in this new PvP server, and it's also up to them to balance and restrict it so that the server maintains a fresh flow of new players over time.

It will be interesting to see how Daybreak faces all these challenges, but if they don't, they might as well just leave Nagafen as the only PvP server. We've already got the "Tumbleweed Rule Set."

You nailed it. Very unfair to have groups of twinks ganking everyone they run into. Using their mains to furnish everything they need to make sure their lockers are well geared. I would not want to go back to that part of the past at all. I was there and it did push out many players from owpvp. Bring back bell huggers, that was always fun to watch. I don't even care if a player can lvl lock, but not to the point where he can overpower himself into God mode. That has to be addressed or as it was said, might as well keep Nagafen as the only red server and move on.

I elect Siren as the spokesman of true pvp. Realistic ideas that are founded from true experience in the game. Unbiased and a nice person. You have my vote

I think level locking should be a thing.. I haven't played in years but a friend of mine told me about a proposed progression PvP server and figured I'd check it out. It was mentioned earlier in this thread but level locking helped me enjoy the game. Not to gank newbies or to kill people who were not as geared but because I was in the military and had a family. I couldn't spend a ton of time in game but still wanted to enjoy it. Being able to level lock, I could slowly obtain my gear/spells/whatever for the next level, THEN level and work towards the next level. Granted, I didn't stay at one specific level forever, but I was able to be competitive with everyone else since I didn't have endless hours to play.
Also, please don't put in separated PvP stats and PvE stats... Use the same stats/gear for both PvP and PvE. No battlegrounds either cause it takes away from the open world PvP.

Teju, even if you only get on to play once in a while, you would still be competitive if no one could shut off XP, freeze their level and twink. There are level restrictions in every zone. It's not like the first level-capped characters could come running back to your level 26 or whatever and gank you off the server. Only people within 8 levels of you can hit you no matter what level you are.

So you playing the game less than everyone else would not matter a bit; anyone around your level that could PvP with you at any given time would be similarly equipped to you, because everyone would be leveling/outleveling their gear and spells at the same rate. No one would be able to freeze in time, master/fabled/legendary everything, and one-shot you, so there would be no need for you to lock, either.

Most MMORPGs with open PvP servers don't even have level locking available, and they're pretty much all doing a lot better population-wise than EQ2's open PvP has been for years.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time at all, I am just pointing this out. I am a single Mom with two kids and a job. I understand time constraints, believe me.

If they don't remove level locking for the new progression server, then they should at least revert back to when aa's become available as you level.

Giving players unrestricted access to almost every aa from the get-go is in my opinion game breaking from a pvp and pve perspective.

AA's and systems in similar games I feel are more for the purposes of customizing and tuning your character to the playstyle of your choice. It doesn't serve that purpose when every aa can be obtained from the beginning.

I wouldn't mind removing the ability to level lock completely, but this is the next best thing in my opinion for promoting healthy pvp and fun pve at all levels.

Just to make things clear, level locking or not, players who locked at the 9 of every tier only did that for bg purposes and after bg's were implemented. Also the pvp level range will be 4 levels as it was originally, not 8.

As it should be. No more buy an AA potion. Earn them and have a cap per level. Don't you remember the days when they put the restriction in after all the twinks maxed out. They went ballistic. It was brutal for them to go for God mode to semi-God mode. Some even rage quit. AA's are an evil thing and should not be something that will break the game like it did before. I want to make my own MC gear that rocks in pvp again.

No level locking then why bother? It's a pvp server. If you are rolling back to a back in the day rule set when pvp was thriving , then do it right. If you don't like dying then don't play on a pvp server. Call out twinks, titled and griefers, that was the system back in the day which promoted even more pvp as the cavalry rolled in. You are not going to get many new players playing this game but this will bring back the old players if done correctly.

What people don't recall is that gear was far less important back when the game was good, good players could overcome gear disadvantages. Make the gear system fair and more about skill then gear.

People assume that level locks do nothing but level lock on one toon and never experience the rest of the game That is a laughable, false and ignorant assumption. Most players level lock various toons and play at max level. Even level locks need food, totems, economy etc.

The pvp servers went to crap bc of the blue players suggestions like no level locking and BGs. That is why Nagafen became desolate, all the changes and mutations it went through.

Which brings up another issue that I'm not sure they have addressed yet: agnostic dungeons. That should be disabled for the server.

Again, I am fine with level locking, but with that being said, and as others have mentioned as well as yourself, a lot of other things have to be fixed such as gear and aa's for it to be remotely close to how it was before BGs and WFs and every other thing they've come out with since the 'golden days' of pvp.

Sure are a lot of opinions here. If we can't come to more of an agreement, we'll likely end up with something none of us like. And it will go the way of Nagafen. Its not so much about what we want either. Its also about setting a fun venue that will pull players in from other games.

Level locking should be implemented on this server. There is no reason not to, yes i will role a main toon. Yes I will get that toon to max level, Yes I will most likely raid on that toon. But I don't want to be forced to play that toon the whole time I am on the server. Hence why lvl locking is ideal for the people who max out a toon. I don't want to play max level all the time, I enjoy many of the lowbie zones and the lowbie pvp that goes with it.

Sorry, but no. YOU may not have had locked twinks in every tier, but early on in level locking there sure were a lot of them! Most of my guild and family quit playing on Nagafen over it, and this was YEARS before BGs in 2010. The open PvP servers first launched with Kingdom of Sky in February 2006 (without AAs, without the slider and without level locking) and by 2007 everybody I knew and played with was long gone, all citing the wall o'twinks griefer squads in every tier as the reason. Anybody who just wanted to level through the game and play all it had to offer while PvPing across the landscapes too was griefed right off the server.

By 2008 and the D.I.R.T.Y. carpet quests most of the population was long gone period, and it was only the absolute dregs left in the chat. BGs didn't come along until 2010. Google it.

I have not really had the time to completely read through all of the posts on the 2 progression server threads but have the devs released any dates at all on either trying all of this on beta or even an actual date for when it goes live? If anyone has these dates please feel free to shoot me a message or reply to this post. I would greatly appreciate it!

What is this server starting at? If it's starting at game launch, I personally think that is dumb, because there is barely any code. We should start it at the xpac where most of the old is available. Example- I heared that KOS/EOF code is still available.

I am going to weigh in and say what I believe and why I believe it. I understand that there are definitely a lot of theories about how this should be implemented, and frankly I respect a lot of the opinions in this thread. With that said, here is what I think below in terms of order of importance.

1) Population: As many people have given up on this game because of the changes that were made to the PvP system, I believe it is on us to tell the old community that the developers are reverting it to its original state. I doubt that there is enough in the old piggy bank to seriously market this, but it is a tremendous opportunity because there are no good, complex, well-done PvP games out there!

2) Gameplay Model: I will bullet this section on what I feel are the most important elements:

• No Fast Travel: Griffons should be the fastest form of transportation. Spires should once again work on timers with shards/tickets. Tickets should be used to get to Nektulos Forest, Thundering Steppes, etc from world bells. Wardens/Furies should once again have to quest for their ability to use Tunare Portals by running to each one. Ground Mounts should be capped at 40%. Obviously, no flying mounts or anything of the sort. - The reason for this is to force more people out playing the game and not having it handed to you. There should be natural areas of conflict in the open world and this encourages it.

• No Safe Zones: This applies to starter zones, instances, guild halls, brokers, reforgers, etc. I remember the days when raids used to form up in Qeynos Harbor and giant guild fights would be there. If you are playing this game and on this server, you are there to pvp. It is your responsibility to bank your goods to keep them safe. - The feeling of being preyed on and the feeling of preying on someone drives the PvP experience. Getting rid of these two feelings destroys open-world PvP. Besides, if you don't wish to fight, it should be an art form to escape fights, sitting in a safe zone does nothing for anyone.

• Experience Gain/Locking/Alternate Achievement Points, etc.: Experience gain should be similar to the rate that was developed in the game during launch. Questing, adventuring, and killing things out in the world drove PVE as well as PVP. By secluding yourself in a dungeon and putting stacks of potions on, you effectively defeat the purpose of the game. Sure, this is more efficient, but is grinding a dungeon over and over really as much fun as grouping and running zones and finding PvP?

I recognize that experience locking is a heated debate: I think that it should not be easy to just click a button and you can sit at a level. @ Flesh and Drew, I respect you guys and I took place in lowbie PvP myself, but when I look at the biggest criticisms of Nagafen, it was on players that twinked out lower level characters and kept zerging people trying to level up. If you MUST make a lower level character, I think you have to do it the hard way... you have to do so via experience debt and accumulate a ton of deaths to counteract PvP kills. This way it is actually a difficult task to make one and it discourages zerging players because you would need to go die more times before fighting people again. - I believe this solution makes everyone happy.

Alternate achievement points, prestige points, and focus effects should not be implemented. These abilities tend to move the game away from its roots. Combat is pushed more towards button mashing instead of other elements like positioning, movement, etc. I liked the level up traits that you got to boost your stats. I think racial traits are nice as it actually allows for small personalization.

• Necessary PvP Functionality:
  • Keep the current spell casting/combat art casting times in, combat back then was too slow.
  • Original Fame system: titles drove PvP incentives. Keep that system in, do not allow people to see how their fame tracks.
  • Death makes you lose coins, items
  • PVP writs are made for status and experience only, for 10 kills. Experience equivalent is that of a basic quest.
  • Immunity is 15 seconds and comes from zoning, death, and teleporting
  • PVP kill experience exceeds experience of killing a normal NPC at the same level by 100% (Double) - another incentive to PvP, but not something that will catastrophically accelerate the leveling process
  • Recent timers set at 15 minutes
  • Exile faction exists, has a shared bank, yet is still attackable by all levels. You have to have some sort of cost to being exile.
  • Calling to home city should be a 15 second spell
  • Level Range should be reverted to what it was at launch, I believe it was 4 levels for most zones and then 8 levels at higher level, larger zones.
  • No use of Deity God Spells
  • Carnage PvP should effectively be obsolete as all zones are live.
  • Again no BGs ever

3) Gear and Stats:

• Stats: I believe the original stats are the way to go. They are simple and diverse. No potency, ability modifier, etc. that had to drastically change the combat math between PVE and PVP. These stats also allowed for the necessary customization in a character without AA points. Stick to the basic different green stats (str, sta, wis, etc.) and eventually add crit chance that will cap at 100 with the best gear, the simpler the better. In essence, customization should come through different green stats through gear and leveling, different gear procs, different deities, and what type of weapons you choose. Hence, blue stats aren't really a major factor and reforging isn't viable (or I think should be allowed).

• Gear: The most important section in my opinion.
  • Avoid gear currencies: this pushes people towards grinding the same zones over and over for tokens to buy gear. It is better to have people grind zones for a chance at a item drop that builds towards their customization
  • Procs should be on gear, the old ones ideally: power feeds, reflects, small damage and healing ones, etc.
  • Gear Progression should be as follows. Raid Gear X4 Gear > Raid X2 Gear > Heritage/Signature Quest Gear > Heroic Gear = Mastercrafted Gear > Quest Gear > Handcrafted Gear > Normal Drop Gear > Merchant Bought Gear
  • ^^ This gear progression works for PvP if the differences in the top levels of gear are very very very minimal. The gear progression works exceptionally well if the higher levels of gear add more raid functionality in a PVE setting than in a PVP setting. This inherently shows the importance of tradeskilling.
  • Class specific gear and procs are highly encouraged. People love this as this adds customization and class specific appearance is a bonus!

4) Class Balancing:

• In general, classes have a few distinct roles: taking damage, putting damage out, providing support and crowd control, and healing. Classes are over powered if they can do MORE THAN ONE of these things really well. Hybrids are ok, yet they should not be able to do more than one of these things really well.
• I like the concepts of reverting classes to Good/Evil/Neutral. If you want to have a good class on the evil side, then you have to go through betrayal to do it. This was like the second iteration of how EQ2 devs approached it. The last iteration is too easy, and the first of purely good classes on the good size and evil classes on the evil side isn't a good one.
• Leave BL and Channeler out, it is too much to incorporate them

Sorry about the wall of text! You are a champ for those who read this and I really hope you did! Especially you developers out there

The most important thing is getting people in the game, after that is putting in a healthy pve/pvp environment, and after that is class balancing. It all starts with getting people to come back to this!

Wow Trasor, that's an amazing post!

However, I get the impression from the devs that they'll be using the code as it stands today, then trying to disable/eliminate as much as possible the biggest PvE problems for PvP. I.E. disabling/nerfing to heck flying mounts/leapers, no BGs on the server, no PvP gear, etc. I don't think any stats, skills, procs, mobs or zones are getting changed. They've already pretty much said they don't have the resources to do any big revamps of anything.