Isn't this thread about parsing the actually differences between DW and 1h dps? So how about less chatter and more actual relevant testing numbers. With proper AAs and identical buff and poison setups, over time, against the same mobs. Someone get with it!
More testing today All of the following tests were performed exactly the same. I opened with Lung Puncture to cripple the target's offensive capabilities, and then followed strictly with auto-attack until the mob was dead. I was using Grandmaster's Caustic Poison. The only things that changed were the weapons used for the tests, and my AA spec when I switched to dual-wield. I relied on weapons that I copied over with me from the live server, rather than purchase weapons from the vendor. I felt this was more indicative of what Atelos may actually parse, rather than rely on weapons that I will not pheasably be aquiring in the near future. I tested each weapon (or combination of weapons) five times, which are listed below. I have also listed the average dps of those five fights in italics beneath the parses. *****ONE-HANDED***** Spec: STR-4-6-5-8-1 WIS-4-6-4-8-1 Poison: Grandmaster's Caustic one-handed, Vilicudae's Sword of Shielding: 563.85 702.88 818.86 539.91 710.12 ------- 667.12 Avg DPS One-handed, Dirk of Negativity 806.11 830.71 724.28 816.17 772.19 ------- 789.29 Avg DPS One-handed, Right Hand of the High Priestess 724.09 691.51 642.08 537.23 831.50 ------- 685.28 Avg DPS One-handed, Oblivion's Edge 599.46 602.49 839.46 747.19 625.14 ------- 682.75 Avg DPS One-handed, Talon's Reach 596.44 779.50 858.74 858.04 599.15 ------- 738.37 Avg DPS Clear Winner: Dirk of Negativity. Avg DPS: 789.29 Clear Loser: Vilicudae's Sword of Shielding. Avg DPS: 667.12 Note: This really surprised me. I thought VSS would be at the top of the list. *****DUAL-WIELD***** Spec: STR-4-6-5-8-1 AGI-4-6-4-8-1 Poison: Grandmaster's Caustic Dual-Wield, Dirk of Negativity and Talon's Reach 726.75 802.48 745.61 684.41 727.72 ------- 737.39 Dual-Wield, Dirk of Negativity and Vilicudae's Sword of Shielding 706.73 725.84 746.00 753.90 703.18 ------- 727.13 Dual-wield, Dirk of Negativity and Oblivion's Edge 642.75 771.32 756.19 741.75 647.67 ------- 711.94 Dual-Wield, Right Hand of the High Priestess and Oblivion's Edge 724.44 552.40 660.23 750.65 594.82 ------- 656.51 Clear Winner: Dirk of Negativity and Talon's Reach. Avg DPS: 737.39 Clear Loser: Right Hand... and Oblivion's Edge. Avg DPS: 656.51 One-hand winner: Dirk of Negativity. Avg DPS 789.29 Dual-wield winner: Dirk of Negativity and Talon's Reach. Avg DPS 737.39 Overall difference: One-handed spec yielded approx 7% overall greater dps than dual-wield. I ran out of time, and so could not test any more dual-wield combinations, but as you can see, based solely on the testing I did, Being STR/WIS spec'd, and using one weapon, provided me with more dps. Is the apparent 7% advantage in dps worth the loss of stats and bonuses from the 2nd weapon? That is for you to interpret.
I wonder what Avast Ye 16% would have been able to do had you been behind the mob at all times since I assume no CA's meant no getting behind or flanking the mob. Nice data though. It is nice to see someone have some actual data and have it nice and organized.
That's a pretty important comparator Bramwell. Personally I care much less about my solo dps than I do raid dps, and raid DPS is typically behind or flanking. I'd assume that this would either make the comparison on par or better for DW, but without statistics that's just an assumption. Frankly I'm suprised that the DW lost to 1h, and I wonder how much of a difference the weapons used makes overall. A complete raids worth of parsing would probably be best.
I dont have the raw data broken out per fight, but I do have the data seperated by weapons and AA choice. Tests were done with 50 kills each of the exact same mob in TT on breading grounds, 62^^^ with Guardian tank and nothing else. Combat arts combination was exactly the same over all 50 fights, done with Macro for testing purposes. Inspiration was not used at all for these tests, short timer buffs were also not used. I had 94 Haste and 33 DPS mod self buffed with 712 STR. I was behind the mob on all 50 fights for all testing with each combination. One Handed: STR-4-6-5-8-1 WIS-4-6-4-8-1 Poison: Grandmaster's Caustic \ Ignorant Bliss Soulfire Gladius 1406 DPS averaged over 50 fights Dual Wield STR-4-6-5-8-1 AGI-4-6-4-8-1 Poison: Grandmaster's Caustic \ Ignorant Bliss Soulfire Gladius \ Rigth Hand of the high Priestess 1378 DPS averaged over 50 fights Soulfire Gladius \ Ancient Vorpal Blade 1389 DPS averaged over 50 fights The biggest thing that I noticed on every fight was that the burst DPS from Dual Wielding was far greater than the One Handed, in the first 5 seconds of every fight while Dual Wielding, the DPS was much higher than one hander, but tapered off over the course of the fight. All of my Procs fired at the start of the fight when Dual Wielding. My assupmtion is that in a raid setup with much higher haste the parse form Dual Wielding would be even clooser to the one hander or pass it by some number. These parses are so close, that whichever way you choose to wield should yield relatively close results to the other way, Weapon choice makes a big difference, and the delay of each weapon with the penalty makes a big difference. All of the above testing was done in group only with no buffs. On raid in EH I had the following results: Trash mobs, 15 mobs each (solo mobs) very good raid group with average haste 200 average dps 150 One hander - Soulfire Sabre - avg dps was 1981 DW Soulfire sabre \ Right Hand of the High Priestess - avg DPS was 2356 With really high haste DW with STR \ AGI will yield higher DPS but a pretty high margin.
SantiagoDraco wrote: The weapons used probably makes a massive difference. I'm going to log back on to test in a bit and see if the parse mobs have respawned yet. They'd be a much better indicator of actual combat dps. I have to say that I'm actually disappointed that DW (in my case anyway) came out so close to 1H+Wis. For the amount of stats you give up, 1H+Wis should be the clear cut winner. If we're talking T7 fabled weapons, that can be +25 or more to several stats, as well as 100 health and power. For that kind of sacrifice, 1H+Wis should be compensated by having quite a bit more dps potential.
Nice thanks for the posts all now were getting some where. First thing I wanted to find out was rather or not SoE had their math right with DW out dpsing 1handers like it should be - if not then things would be off anyways regardless of any AA's. I finally hit 62 and not raiding yet so I am master crafted all the way through and with DW setup I was getting around 700 - 1000 dps on 60 - 65 mobs with Monk/Inquis/Assassin/Me(brigand). I haven't been parsing myself it was the monk but I will do some myself then go back to WIS spec'd and parse that as well and let you know (and on the brig boards as things are a bit different for swashies) but it will still give a few more stats. SoE has messed up a lot of things for other scouts (poor rangers) but I will be danged if they are going to mess up brigs or their good counter part the swashies.
Geakor wrote: Are you reading the posts at all? Dual wield isn't outparsing one-handed. 1HS+Wis is still the way to go for dps according to all available data. As it should be. If dual-wield allowed you to do more dps than 1HS+Wis, then what would be the point of the Wis line? There wouldn't be any point.
Okay this seems like a relative topic to post this in instead of creating a new thread so... Currently I am running with 2x Infirmity (73.0 damage rating, 1.6 dly, 800 damage proc over 12 seconds) AA spec'd Str/Agi KoS trees with Reachs/Debuffs for EoF trees. Would there be any benefit for me to switch over to 1H spec using just one Infirmity? From what I can see there are no benny's for a 1H spec with my setup seeing as 1H double attack will not proc the weapon and double attack will. (If I can understand this correctly, if I'm wrong please correct me). Any feedback is appreciated, thanks
Okay this seems like a relative topic to post this in instead of creating a new thread so... Currently I am running with 2x Infirmity (73.0 damage rating, 1.6 dly, 800 damage proc over 12 seconds) AA spec'd Str/Agi KoS trees with Reachs/Debuffs for EoF trees. Would there be any benefit for me to switch over to 1H spec using just one Infirmity? From what I can see there are no benny's for a 1H spec with my setup seeing as 1H double attack will not proc the weapon and double attack will. (If I can understand this correctly, if I'm wrong please correct me). Any feedback is appreciated, thanks
The basics of getting the most out of ?/wis is using a slow wean delay because you will hit harder. Weapon speeds of 1.6 or lower will not get full benefits of haste. My build is str/wis in KOS and Reach/Style in EOF it will take a while before finding the right weapon to make the most out of the wisdom tree. That is dual wield is slightly more viable because you will not be as picky on the weapons you use as you will need to be for the 1 h spec.
A lot of people see the 1H + WIS spec only in terms of the offhand stats that are sacrificed and conclude that superior DPS is required to compensate for that loss. The significant advantage to this spec that people often overlook is the fact that you only need to obtain one quality weapon to make it work. It is, in fact, a sort of poor man's damage spec, and from that point of view it's no so obvious that it should do more damage.
Atelos@Antonia Bayle wrote: If you read Geakor's posts, he's talking baseline with no AAs. DW =should= be outparsing 1H under those conditions. That's the reason Geakor wanted =baseline= numbers: he was afraid that 1H with no AA might be outparsing DW with no AA. Once he's convinced that it's "working properly" with no AAs, then he's going to check to see if adding the WIS line makes 1H+WIS the best choice. I think he's being overly cautious, but then again, it's his time to spend testing these things, so....
I agree you do lose some stats going 1hr / Wis line but you also gain +Slash, Pierce and crush plus defence and riposte. Don't have hard numbers but from what I have found... If I DW and I am not receiving any +Slash Pierce buffs I will pass lower than 1hr as my hit chance will be around 70%... as opposed to WIS spec my hit chance will be closer to 90% If however DWing in a group with say a guard and dirge... DW will be equal to 1hr as both specs will be hitting 90% This as always means that the specs are highly gear and group dependant. You cannot compare them both without taking that into consideration. 1 hr in my opinion is much more self reliant DPS build... DW is more variable with your group and gear makeup... in optimal conditions passing more with DW. The post from "intensive" puts them as almost identical... that's because a guard buffs Slash / Pierce reducing the benefits of the end line ability in WIS against DW when he was on breading grounds.... And in EH with a great raid setup with maxed haste the DW coming out on top as DW benefits more from haste now as the DR has been tailored to a 33% slower attack speed... 200% haste can effectively remove this restriction. Str / Wis Soulfire 4 sec delay 1hr + 200% haste = 1.33 delay Above when spamming CA effective delay is 2.0 sec Str / Agi DW 4 sec + 33% delay + 200% haste = 1.77 delay Above when spamming CA effective delay is 1.8 sec (due to sailwind)
Vatec wrote: I know he is. The issue is, "baseline" damage is irrelevant. *shrugs* to each his own, I guess.
Atelos@Antonia Bayle wrote: Baseline damage is irrelevant =if= you assume that everything is "working as intended." But if it turns out that something is broken (1H with no AAs is outparsing DW), then it's pretty significant. Frankly, I've seen no evidence that there's a problem, so I don't we need baseline data. But I =am= making an assumption there.
Damn i wish i hadn't shut down act before saving parses. Well to make long story short the day of GU 38 i went ahead and respeced my swash to dw str/agi line, well since i wanted to test it out and also my raid guild has another swash currently doing 1hr wis/agi spec. So i figured at least it be a nice little experiment. Like i said, i wish i had the parse for proof and review. We did chel'drak first. With 1hr i never hit parse, with dw i managed to scrape little above 1k, where the other swash did not hit parse at all. Bad raid to base on right? So we go to next one, Same thing as we go into clock, i barely made zonwide parse, he did not. So then we hit MMIS. This is what i was waiting for. longer zone, more mobs, not all the crazy *** adds all over the place. Perfect for hurricane. Both myself and the other 1hand speced swash do not have same gear, but are pretty equally geared up overall. He was using Soulfire gladius, and i was using Ancient Vorpal blade in primary and ancient vellium rapier in secondary... I was checking parses as raid progressed and was very confused. One prase i'd be around 1.7k he wouldn't have made top. next parse he'd make 1.7k and i would not have. What i was really waiting on was zonewide because of the flucuation and difference in spec, gear and possible CA rotations... So we get through zone, get the whole parse and for the two swashes in test we were about even for zone wide parse. dw was seriously about 20 points lower then dw. But at least mayong didn't throw those damn aoes as fast. <shrugs> very un-accurate data, i know, but i thought it was an interesting outcome, and true story to share on this post. Since then i have tried other things, such as swapping other weapons in primary, secondary. Timing CAs, spamming CAs different gear, proc gear. So maybe someone or myself can get some real time action parses in here from two swashes 1 dw and the other one handed. cause, where's the parse really count and show? level 66 basalisks or on a raid?
Since going dual wield, I have noticed the following differences in my parse: 1. STR/WIS (SoD): 43% of my total damage is auto-attack. 2. STR/AGI: (SoD + Shadow Axe): 39% of my total damage is auto-attack. BUT You can tack on a full 10% for the proc on the AGI line. As far as I'm concerned, that 49/43 in favor of dual wield. I think it's very weapon dependent. If I got a nice EoF fabled one hander, I would probably switch back to STR/WIS, at least until I got TWO nice one.
Padrich@Kithicor wrote: A couple of things: 1 -- You may or may not be aware of just how important your group make-up is when raiding. Any swashbuckler who says he's parsing more than about 1.2k in MMIS self-buffed, is full of brown stuff. Perhaps the reason you hadn't been making parse before was the group you were in. If you can get in with a coercer, dirge, and fury, life will be good. But if you don't have a lot of beneficial buffs on you, your dps is going to stink. 2 -- I think the parse counts when it gives you the information you've been looking for. " /> EDIT. The following data is completely useless and irrelevant, but posted so that certain individuals can be happy. You have been warned. I did some quick testing on TestPVP. No AA's. No buffs. Nothing but me and my weapons and the badguy. I repeat. No buffs. No AA's. Nothing. (This is to satisfy the obsessive-compulsive types who MUST have baseline data and cannot seem to get it themselves, for some strange reason). Stats: -- Strength was 498. No buffs, remember. -- Melee crit chance was 7%. -- No haste. -- 10% dps mod. 1st contender: Dirk of Negativity. 197.29 205.26 192.58 202.35 165.04 Average: 192.5 2nd contender: Oblivion's Edge, and Brakzar's Cleaver. Note: I chose these weapons because they have the same delay. 265.27 212.46 199.84 254.54 229.21 Average: 232.26 Difference: Approx 20% overall in favor of the dual-wield spec. There. Now those of you who simply insist on the importance of "baseline" data, but for whatever reason cannot seem to gather it yourselves, have it. Oh, and look... dual-wield outparsed one-handed. Now you can be doubly happy. Good day.
Atelos@Antonia Bayle wrote: Erm, thanks, I guess. Although in all fairness I'll point out that I said we didn't need baseline data. Only Geakor felt we did. And Geakor said he was collecting the data. So, um, I never insisted on baseline data and Geakor was gathering it himself. So I'm not sure who, exactly, this comment is for.... That being said, thanks for taking the time to gather the data. I'm glad to see that things are actually "working as intended" for once....
