Geakor wrote: Since you feel the need to use me as an example, I'll go ahead and retort: First, you were speced WIS with a fabled 1 hander, kind of kills the entire argument. Secondly, yes, you were peaking higher than me in the parses you bothered to post to say, but I was running parses of my own: zonewide, I beat you by a very narrow margin. As a matter of fact, here's the zonewide parse for our Tables run: Allies: (09:07) 756803 | 1383.55 [Halagad-Surprise Attack-2035] Kalandre 325555 | 595.16 Halagad 287763 | 526.08 <BRUISER> 141973 | 259.55 <INQUIS> 1512 | 2.76 Of course, I do give credit where credit is deserved, and you DID peak well: Allies: (00:12) 25619 | 2134.92 [Halagad-Debilitate-1802] Halagad 14989 | 1249.08 Kalandre 6430 | 535.83 <BRUISER> 4200 | 350.00 <INQUIS> 0 | 0.00 However, that does not make your argument any more valid. Parsing 1 hander without WIS is as foolish as parsing dual wield WITH it. Both should have the common AA setups (because thats whats being tested here, not the weapons themselves), and be used under the same conditions. For future reference, next time you make a post laced with blatantly false examples, make sure the subject of that post doesn't frequent the forum.
First thing I must say I love this massive quoting. Secondly if you knew how a brig plays half the time I have to save other peoples lives because tanks are really blowing lately with keeping aggro off everyone so I have to sit there and stop others from getting killed, if you don't remember Kal who had aggro during our time in the tables the other day? It wasn't the tank I can tell you that either you or I would get aggro and in those cases I would pull them off of you as quickly as possible. Like yesterday when I spent half the time keeping mobs off our healer rather than dpsing - so you can burn little man. I don't care about being top dps, if I wanted that I would have made tier 1 dps class. I lower mobs abilities well before I care what my dps turns out to be. I would like to know flat out what is going to be better 1handed vs duel wielding. I would think every one would agree that duel weilding should put out more dps rather than using a 1hander and I want to make sure of that. This was the only place where I saw any type of that test going on that is why I posted here, I guess no other class really cares about the changes as swashys do. But testing is over and it is suppose to go live today so I guess we shall see what is going to happen now. And we have grouped more than just the one time in Tables Kal, not to mention I have grouped with a few of you swashy that love to get that bixie sword - and yes that time I was WIS spec'd because I wanted to test it out before the next LU so I can see how things are with duel wield STR/AGI vs 1handed STR/WIS line.
Geakor wrote: Okay, let's investigate this. First, I've grouped with you once, and only once. Secondly, I do know Brigs, I WAS one. Thirdly, there are EXACTLY 2 Swashbucklers on Oasis that match the description you put forth, and only ONE has logged since July: me (it's not as though the server is crawling with late t6/early t7 chars). Fourth, not ONCE did the healer get agro in our group. Fourth, I was simply breaking down your very weak argument, not turning this into a DPS competition. If I wanted, I could show you the breakdown of my damage, revealing that only ONCE in the entire run did I use Inspired Daring, if we really want to get into a childish "zomg I wasn't going all out DPS" argument. Finally, don't act like your debuffing is crippling your DPS, Swash are rogues too, in fact, if you recall, I had a little discussion with you before we got started so we could coordinate our debuffs better. I do seem to recall reading several posts from you about "nobody is able to out-DPS me in groups", so I'd say you do care, a bit, about being top DPS. That's not what this argument is about...it's about the extremely lame attempt you made to back up a weak argument using false information. I simply pointed out the falsehoods.
Geakor wrote: If that were true, there would be no reason for a 1-hander AA spec. Better DPS for dual wield plus better stats = hands-down better combo, & anyone choosing otherwise would be flatly gimping themselves. So no, I don't think you'll get a whole lot of people agreeing with you. Since very few people of any level are working without AAs, it's silly to talk about the "raw data" of weapons. Simply put, it's just not relevant. What is relevant is one AA spec vs another. This is especially true at anything above 60th level. Good day, sir.
Time to put my nose into this one..... You should use raw data, this will give you a base line for a one hander/empty off hand and dual wielding, this way you can make sure you have BOTH raw data weapon combos at the same DPS level. Then and only then can you truly compare what each AA spec gives you in terms of DPS boost. You really need to know that both set ups are close to the same base DPS to make an accurate assessment as to which is better.
Lukia wrote: The "raw" data is still irrelevant. You don't (hopefully) fight with no AA's, so parsing without them is a moot point. The end result, ie -- how you perform with various specs, is what is important.
i get more dps out of str/agi than i do outta str/wis, or str/sta. And tbh a ton of it comes from that pirate stab. I figured 16%, hey its not gonna go off much. . . but man does it! So heres a question, does EACH HIT have a 16% chance to trigger it? if so two weapons seems like it would trigger way more often then agi spec with one. I luff the pirate stab . . .
I have grouped with you more than once because I asked you 'where you got the bixie sword' because I wanted one. But that is besides the point. I don't know if this matters to you guys but on brigand forum they say YES STR/WIS line is the highest dps line you can go down, WHEN you have the appropriate weapon ie t7/8 fabled 1handers along with appropriate buffs. But as non raiders go that do not get these great fabled weapons duel wield STR/AGI line is the best for you; at least for brigands. OH also I saw a buff on a swash the other day that I did not know that you had - Hurrican? Which adept I has 38% chance of primary weapon auto attacking mobs infront of you, this DOES make STR / WIS better for you than it would a Brig. MY BAD someone could have told me about this skill. Dang swashies.
Lukia wrote: While gathering the baseline data for comparison purposes might make good sense from a statistical viewpoint, in this discussion it's irrelevant. A. This isn't a job. No one has the =duty= to gather this sort of information for everyone else's edification and amusement. B. The baseline data is pretty much irrelevant unless you suspect something isn't working properly. If DW isn't outparsing 1H when there are no AAs involved, something is horribly broken. And if DW is outparsing 1H, then that's not terribly interesting information. C. What most people =care= about is whether or not a DW Swashbuckler trying to maximize DPS is comparable to a 1H Swashbuckler trying to maximize DPS. Once those numbers are known, we can then decide whether or not the extra DPS from the WIS line balance out the loss of stats from giving up the second weapon.
Vatec wrote: I am very happy someone can put things into the words that I was trying to say but couldn't get accross. While others were trying to mock me about what I was trying to this is what I was trying to say. DW with nothing extra should infact beat 1handed damage (thats the point) and with these changes with LU38 things are much different and if DW infact is not beating 1handed damage then we have a problem. Thank you Vatec.
I hope I can be forgiven for this...but 1h should do better damage to make up for the loss of off hand stats, if it does not why even look at the WIS line. For the longest time I could not see ?/wis for what it really was and I was one of the ones who argued that dw should always be the best of dps. But the more I looked at my swashbucklers progression and abilities I finally saw the real beauty of 1h. I am not suggesting that 1h be uber but there should be a give and take between dual wield and 1h. We should all be working together not attacking eachother afterall we all play the swashbuckler class because we love to do it.
I believe it should be DW that does better damage, that would be the point of carrying around two weapons rather than one. using a 1hander should do more damage per hit, but with DW you should do more damage faster and over all due to more weapon swings. People look at the WIS line for the massive double attack that you get from it and not to mention lunge reversal is pretty sweet. But as I stated from the previous post with an uber enough 1hander and the correct buffs apparently you do massive damage with WIS line, swash also have a auto attack to multi mobs in front of them that seems to be pretty nice, my berzerker has that and it is WONDERFUL for some mass damage. But think about it what is going to do more harm to you - one stab or two stabs? If SoE was nice they would give us an extra deflection from carrying duel wield as that is another intended use for duel wielding.
Geakor wrote: I agree. Otherwise AA's aside a dps may as well throw on a 1 hander and shield and do more damage than DW.
If it's working properly it should be: 1H + WIS > DW > 1H + shield Look at it this way: 1H + shield has the best defense and gets bonuses from two items; DW loses the defense but still get two sets of bonuses; 1H + WIS =also= loses the defense and loses the extra set of stats besides. So, the path that gives up the most should be compensated with better DPS. Compare this to the situation Warriors face, where the STA(?) AA line lets them do as much damage as DW and still keep a buckler for defense. That situation is clearly unbalanced....
I have a few questions: DW now has more room for improvement with haste now? Does poison proc from both weapons but only off your main hand? So your main hand procs's twice effectively? Can poison proc when you double attack. I switched to DW last night as I love my VSS to much... so now rolling with SOD legendary Sabre and VSS Last night in Freethinkers Passed 2200 Zone wide... I was 3000+ on trash when temp buffs where up. Group was Pally, Defiler, Templar, Warden, Dirge, Swashy... (Was MT group) My AA setup is STR/AGI, Poison/Reach (Sabre/VSS) Before respect was passing about 1500-1800 zone wide AA setup was AGI/WIS, Reach/Style (VSS)
Vatec wrote: QFE, relevant text bolded & super-sized for convenience. This point has been made at least once in this thread already, so I kinda-sorta fail to see why Geakor is still arguing otherwise.
"Look at it this way: 1H + shield has the best defense and gets bonuses from two items; DW loses the defense but still get two sets of bonuses; 1H + WIS =also= loses the defense and loses the extra set of stats besides." Actually, DWing gives up more Defensive abilities than 1hander + Wis, hehe. Wis 3 (I believe?) gives 8% (or 4%?) Riposte, which is pure uncontested avoidance. Not to mention the extra little +16 Defense from Coule. Just thought I would point that out Steve: Poison only procs off main hand attacks. Poison does not proc off the second attack on a double attack. -NOTHING- procs on the second attack of the double attack, the second attack just has a chance to crit, that is the only "bonus" it will ever receieve.
Geothe wrote: Fair enough. So I guess the question is, is that uncontested avoidance enough to make up for the loss of stats and other useful bonuses from a shield or second weapon? If it is, then DW should probably parse higher. If it isn't, 1H+WIS should. And if it's unclear, they should probably parse about the same....
