Bruener wrote: No simple point is THIS IS A PALADIN THREAD asking for fixes to thier class. Guardians are doing well right now. Nerfing brawlers still leaves paladins behind. This means guards are still far ahead. PALADINS still need help. THIS IS WHAT THIS THREAD IS ASKING FOR. This is not a thread about your agenda to nerf brawlers which doesnt solve ANYTHING other then your personal vendetta.
Bruener wrote: He played with darkonx and he doesnt even like darkonx and he already realizes he is a better player then you. Since they both tanked the same content. Its that simple. You havent played with a paladin in some time and your constant complaints about how much you blow at content vs EVERYOTHER fighter in game pretty much paints everyone a picture of how bad you are.
I agree Gungo, but your fuse seems a little short. To the contrary though, Bruener. I'm not incorporating personal experiences or opinions into my statements. You're doing nothing but. Post some actual information. Do more than just flail your arms around like an imbecile, and people would be more inclined to agree with you. The numbers are not in your favor, and adjusting the numbers is all they can do. I live up to the "real potential" of Paladins, which is why I am where I am. The entire Paladin community is agreeing with me because what I'm saying is true. Have you played a Paladin? I've played a Shadowknight. Shadowknights are fine. Have you played a Berserker? I've played a Berserker. Beserkers are not fine. Monks, Guardians, and Paladins should be on the same level for tanking. Bruisers, Berserkers and Shadowknights should be on the same level for DPS/Utility.
First of all, the fact that Gungo is in here defending his OP'd class hoping to get you Paladins riled up on his side is not the kind of support that you guys want at all. It actually weakens anything you say. Second. If you can go back and reread what I actually posted I agreed that Paladins needed some love. I have been saying that since DoV beta when I could see both Crusaders were getting the shaft big time in the nerfs they took and the lack of decent abilities actually received. Unlike you though I can recognize which classes need what type of changes...instead of trying to claim that SKs are fine when it is obvious the population of actual end game raiding SKs is declining massively because of the lack of tools they have just like Paladins. Its also obvious the condition that Brawlers are in and why the end game raiding population for Brawlers is sky rocketting and MTs of all different types are deciding to reroll to a Brawler because of the huge advantage they have. In fact the TOP guilds WW in progression are using Brawlers to do their MT'ing and the smart/lucky ones pick up a 2nd one to do their OT'ing too. Its all just that much easier and instead of having to wait for nerfs they can handle the content before SOE nerfs it to a level ALL tanks can handle. I have seen a lot of ideas to help Paladins out. The main thing is having some type of block ability that has a decent reuse. Really a single stoneskin / magic stoneskin / reflect / massive ward / etc on a 1:30 reuse so that after reuse is calculated in it is up probably every 50-55 sec would be a reliable anti-spike ability that would fit in between everything else and go a very long ways. In general Fighter DPS needs to be raised to a much better ration in relation to T1 DPS which helps ALL Fighters in a category that is extremely messed up right now....self hate generation and raid viability. The gap T1 has over everybody else has gotten way out of hand and needs to be lowered, something that is hopefully going to noticeably happen over the next few months as scouts hit the MA cap while Fighters still grow in MA along with both getting DPS mod. Fighters in general are way way too reliant on a T1 DPS class transferring them hate and having to have the "perfect" tank set up to do their job. It actually is very unhealthy for the game in a ton of ways because any time you need to rely on more than 1 or 2 tanks having to tank you have to lower your raid DPS a ton and it destroys what SF saw with having flexible tank type group set ups and bringing 4 Fighters without feeling like you were shooting yourself directly in the Foot. Right there I see Survivability addressed, DPS addressed, and Hate generation addressed. I am not convinced anything other than that needs to be changed in terms of buffing your class. The only other thing that needs to change is the mechanics that keep coming out that completely favor Brawlers and Guards. SOE can't even release content that is balanced for all Fighters because 2 Fighters specifically seem to have current types of mechanics favoring their class. Strike thru, MAs, massive procs on successful hit, 1 shot AEs are all mechanics that just seem to keep coming out that 2 Fighters specifically get to take advantage of. Take away some of that big advantage than SOE can start launching more balanced mechanics on mobs for ALL Fighters instead of 2 get to Tank everything a lot easier while the others wait for nerfs.
Bruener wrote: First off i have been responding in this thread before your anti brawler rhetoric. Second as i said before nerfing brawlers had NOTHING to do with what a paladin needed. You could nerf brawlers and paladins still will not have the tools they need to be fixed. You know the entire POINT of this thread. Third your kissarse ideas of stone skins has been repeated multiple times already and the DPS issue is NOT an issue. ALSO as stated several times IN THIS THREAD paladins DO NOT HAVE AN ISSUE WITH SUSTAINED AGRO. It is positionals they lack. Trying to reinvent fighters into t1 dps is NOT HEALTHY FOR THE GAME. It never was. There was massive issues with fighter dps being rogue+ levels that caused the developers to let fighter dps stay behind. If a guardian who has the least amount of fighter dps and NO alternative form of hate gain besides a 25% transfer has NO ISSUES holding agro in raids. Then a shadowknight with higher dps, MORE aoe positionals, hate gain on all life taps should not have an issue if he knows what he is doing. LIKE USING HATE ADORNS INSTEAD OF MA. Again learn to play your class because I raid with a high end MT shadowknight who doesnt have an issue holding agro. FIGHTER DPS/sustained agro is not an issue for any fighter except for yourself who needs to justify his raid slot as a t1 dps. Same crap diffrent day with bruener nerf other fighters , overpower shadowknights. All you did was come into a paladin thread and tell them they could get 1 stoneskin and increase all fighter dps and nerf brawlers/guards. Did you even read the thread or did you just figure this was another forum to spew your brawler hate. Because Its plain as fricken english in the first post they stated they DONT NEED DPS and they DONT NEED SUSTAINED AGRO. The two issues you are trying to convince them they need or really trying to push your own agenda or what YOU WANT. You dont care about all fighters. You dont care about balance. You for the last three years have been trying to overpower shadowknights and if this thread doesnt clue you in NO ONE IS BUYING ANYTHING YOU SAY.
Gungo@Crushbone wrote: Not really going to take a lot of my time to respond much to your idiotic posts. To be short you are wrong, period. And Paladin fixes have to be kept in mind with Brawler nerfs for healthy mechanics. You give on one end a little, and take on the other a little to balance fighters...its not hard to figure out. Your theories about DPS are exactly why Fighters have garbage for DPS this xpac and totally destroyed Fighter agro this xpac. People like you should not be able to post, period. Please enlighten us on how Rogue type DPS for Fighters in raids creates a massive issue...I mean wanting to bring 4 Fighters along for their versatility without being an all around drain on raid DPS is an issue? I really am sick of arguing with you though. Others know, Devs know, and that is all that matters.
Bruener wrote: Reread the first post that nearly EVERY paladin agreed on and tell me again how they want dps and sustained agro. If I am wrong then every paladin who stated this is wrong and somehow bruener the all knowing of class balance knows better then every person responding in this thread. It Litterally says paladins DONT NEED DPS and they DONT NEED SUSTAINED AGRO. My theories are based on facts on PRIOR events. Fighter dps WAS TO HIGH. That was why it was not increased. There is also NO SUSTAINED AGRO issue this expac only memwipe issues and lack of snaps. Sustained agro is a joke right now with high hate gain. You are correct the devs DO KNOW. Which is why Xelgad stated several times he had no intention of increasing fighter dps in any substantial amount. Which is why itemization is intentionally not including massive amounts of MA like scout gear. Which is why this expac they intentionally did not give fighters any significant dps boost. Even after RECENT item revamps. Even on the now EOW gear and fighter mythicals. To be short you are wrong, period.
I don't want more DPS or more sustained aggro. I want the suriviability to be either on par as to what a defensive tank should have and proper tooling for mem wiping adds. (A related note: I don't want our class to be radically redesigned to achieve these two points) If I wanted to DPS, I would be playing my wizard. I want to tank and I want to have the right tools to do so, as a Paladin. Not as any other class. Edit: I don't really care what other classes get. I just want to be able to do my job well.
Lawrs@Permafrost wrote: ^^^^ THIS So please take your spat to another page as it is adding nothing constructive to this thread.
Wow, I have a lot to read and catch up on. One note though. ADD STONESKIN TRIGGERS TO OUR REZ TARGET. That way we don't need to move, or risk them dying instantly when we rez. Bonus range does nothing when we still have to move before they accept.. which often defeats the purpose of rezzing them faster. EDIT: After reading: Duele, you're kind of just trolling man. You came into an elaborate thread, insulted everyone by saying we were basically overcomplicating the situation (Which you personally have not experienced) and turned it into a Tank feedback thread, instead of a Paladin feedback thread. You're yelling for brawler nerfs, rolling DPS changes, and SK buffs. TRUTH: Paladins are worse off than Shadowknights in every department. You're probably just not very good. EVERY PALADIN IN THIS THREAD AGREEING can't be "not very good", because we're all that's left, lol. That's not how comparisons work. There are less than 10 competitive Paladins left in the game, and all of them are extraordinarily good players. There are still a huge amount of average shadowknights left over from the overpowered TSO days. You're comparing mediocrity to excellence. Your entire argument is invalid, because there are SKs that do much better than you do with the same. They don't have these issues you're conjuring up just to be overpowered again. There's a reason this thread is so robust, because there isn't a single educated person not willing to support paladin-only improvements before making any drastic changes to every other tank.
Lawrs@Permafrost wrote: I honeslty think that a re-design is needed but only to our heals There is NO REASON why the paladin class should have so many direct heals; tweaking and changing our flurry of heals into tanking abilities rather than just set direct heals is the way forwards. We have been told time and again that a pally class should be a highly defensive tank with heals making up the difference between us and guardians. roblem is giving us lots of heals only makes us better solo-ers and not better tanks. Even just changing Holy Aid into a single trigger reactive is a much better idea than our current "yet another heal". We have 12 (13) buttons on our hot bars which heal us We can also have 4 different methods to cure ourselves not counting potions Most healers don't get that much.....
Maergoth@Antonia Bayle wrote: Here is the problem. You guys are comparing yourselves to Fighters that are known to be OP'd right now. Bringing you up to their stupid level of being able to negate 1 shots constantly while having np with agro due to great sustained agro PLUS awesome snap ability is not the way to go. If you could step back and look at it from a mechanics stand point and balancing Fighters better as a whole what I said makes perfect sense. Crusaders should not get the snaps that Brawlers get. Brawlers were given their great snap agro capability along with awesome short term survivability buffs for one simple reason...pick mobs up easily and hold them for a short time without much support. I agree that Paladins need more in the way of handling the incoming spike 1 shots. An additional ability on a pretty fast reuse that they can use for those 1 shot AEs and maybe even the addition of an ability on a longer reuse. Sustained agro is fine. The DPS argument I put up though is for Fighter mechanics as a whole. Hate is getting stupid this xpac and tbh T1 DPS numbers are way out of whack from where they should be. 20-30% higher than T2 makes sense...not 100%. I would expect this gap to start to close with the next xpac. Scouts for example are going to hit their MA cap while Fighters will still climb. Closing that huge gap with do a few things.....make self hate generation more reliable which allows for more flexibility in raids and allow for more flexible raid set ups instead of every open spot possible going to T1 DPS classes and even dropping other utility to just fill in with T1 like it is now. As for me personally. The fact is I could have your spot in the guild you are in at any time I wanted. Personally attacking me when you really don't have a clue how I play is really getting old and is a Gungo/Blanka tactic. Its really quite pathetic and desperate but does provide for a good chuckle for anybody that has actually seen me in action.
Bruener wrote: First the content dictates the tools needed to survive the fact guardians and brawlers have those tools does not negate the fact paladins DO NOT HAVE THOSE TOOLS. I havent seen many posts saying guardians are overpowered and paladins should be comparable to guardians. Right now in game adds mem wipe alot and have coop strike which requires them to be snapped back ASAP. Right now in game named npcs have extremely large mostly physical damage insta kill mechanics. Attacks that do 125% of your health in damage that can only be prevented by stone skins or death prevents or in rarer cases VERY HIGH damage reduction/wards. These mechanics exist regardless if guards or brawlers have better tools to handle these situations or not. Paladins are the defensive crusader they need the tools to survive in game named npcs who have extremely large damage spikes. Sustained agro is NOT an issue. Self hate generation is not an issue. Seriously get yourself hate adorns. Darkonx still raids and maintanks most content. He has no issue with sustained hate. Fighters do not need more dps to hold agro. The gap may close a bit because of the MA cap and likely more when they introduce reforging but the developers have no intention of making fighter gear any more comparable to scout gear. Scouts will always have a significant advantage in dps as they SHOULD. Rogues will still out dps fighters and bards will still beat fighters in most situations. The devs do KNOW this hence why they just revamped all gear and still left fighter gear with significantly less dps. I find it funny you scold maergoth for questioning your ability after you question his. The fact is equillibrium (gaige in particular) has posted maergoth is a very good paladin and while jael has been the best he has seen maergoth is very close. I doubt you could take his spot away considering your constant crying on how every fighter is a better class then you. That simple shows that at some point every fighter class has outplayed you. Once again sinc eyou have a hard time understanding. Fighters DO NOT need sustained agro. Fighters do not need more dps. PALADINS need a reliable stone skin ability. PALADINS need a reliable amount of single target snaps. There is other suggestions such as removing the 1 hate position on holy ground and some other form of ontrolable hate position on thier aoe taunts but the two prior suggestions are the two biggest issues PALADINS deal with in this expac.
@Duele You're missing what we're saying. You're expecting us to want to be on par with shadowknights. That's completely unacceptable. You guys are the offensive tank. If we can't do the DPS you do or have the utility you do, we need to have the survivability THEY do. Since we're not hailed as defensive as guardians, I'd expect us to get some utility and aggro benefits over them as well.. that's how it works. A tank is boiled down to three different things. Survivability Aggro Utility Utility and DPS are synonymous. 100%. They have nothing to do with aggro, as aggro needs to stand up on its own. If I have a button I can click that makes my group hit for 1k each, or a combat art that hits for 6k, they both kill the mob as fast. Obviously there will be little differences in application, but I don't need to show up on the parse if it means I can do enable that DPS, survive and hold aggro. There's no reason every class should have everything top notch, I agree. But there's even less reason for Paladins and Shadowknights to be even, since you're SUPPOSED to be a more offensive tank. We should get the survivability edge, the same aggro potential, and a little less utility. Right now we have less survivability, less aggro, and much less utility. How can you disagree with that, beyond ignorance? Nobody cares how good you think you are, but the fact of the matter is, you're making this a topic about you. You're bringing your personal experience and your class into a thread where it doesn't belong, and getting upset because people aren't agreeing with you.
Really the bickering and pointing fingers in here degrades the entire thread. I would really like to see where all of this is going. I was asked by my guild to roll as a monk. I will always have my Paladin and countinue to drive for the changes needed. It's just that they were needed a long time ago and really I'm raiding now.
Boli@Splitpaw wrote: I don't mind things like this, but I don't want to wake up one day and feel like I'm playing a totally different class You know, the scrapped fighter revamp and all.
Bruener wrote: Just about every post you make seems to talk about general mechanics, this-that and the other thing. Go make a new thread about that and post there. I'm not saying there are issues. What I'm trying to say: This is not the place for your input. Find the right place for it. I don't care if the current content summons a battalion of rangers to shoot up the tank. If we can't handle it and others can, then there are issues. They should be fixed. OR the developers should tell us what we are (which they won't since "classes are always in a state of flux").
