Cyrdemac wrote: Our heals cannot do critical hits anymore. Divine Aura is 100% worthless in raids now (I used it to some success during TSO. I did not play the game during SF so I cannot comment on its usefulness during that expansion) due to the large critical damage spikes and the huge AEs. The funny thing is that the uselessness of DA is actually popping its head up in heroic instances =/ Holy Ground got nerfed so we have large issues against mem wiping mobs.
Lawrs@Permafrost wrote: Divine Aura's recast was adjusted to be 5min... it used to be 10min; unfortunally we are now hit for more than 50% of our health damage regually AT BEST it will absorb autoattacks so to save wards for large AoEs right now In EoF we had massive issues with memwiping mobs; guards had reinforcement, zerkers had glibe, bruisers had drag (and it worked) and I *think* both brawlers had Mantis Leep at that time. Even Sks had enhanced rescue (more positions on it) In general tho it was rough.. but do-able as only one mob had a true memblur (Treyloth) ... so when rok came along we were given holy ground.. a tool to deal with memwiping/bluring mobs as it was NEEDED. Since that time it has bene nerfed but we held on in TSF due to ire procs and high tank DPS (in comparison). RoV comes along and BAMN... more memwipes, more memblurs and less tank DPS... those with the snaps win -it doesn;t matter if we can have a maintained hit twice that of other tanks if we loose agro for 10s every 60s no-one is going to use us. Paladin as a class has remains virtually unchanged since DoF class revamp with seemingly random abilities tacked on.. its quite obvious everyone who has added to the class has no real direction for the class as a whole except for a few points > Paladins can heal... give them more heals (I have at last count 12 (possible 13) abilities on my hotbars which either ward or heal me) > Pallys have amends which is a hate over time, so lets give them more! (Faithful Cry, standard taunt, sigil, amends and now holy ground triggers are all hate over time) > Pallys and crusaders in general must have trouble holding and dealing AE damage and AoE damage - lets give them more! (I have 16 abilities which give either hate or damage to an AE/AoE encounter) > Pallys and SKs must share their saves to make it "fair" (Manawall, DA, Faithful Cry, Legionaries Conviction) but since we don't want either class to be too overpowered each shared save must have a significant drawback! In general they have played the class "too safe" for "too long" giving us small increases but being too afraid to make some needed sweeping changes. I personally don't want a single ubbah ability which does everything... I want our heals reworked so they do what they should have done since day one... assist us with TANKING... not simply direct heals tacked on.
This thread makes me laugh every time I review it. The first couple pages say absolutely everything, and then the last 15 pages are just desparate attempts to get dev attention and maybe offer ideas they'd be fine with. Short of like 10 good points brought up since then, anyway. It's just.. pseudobumping. You're all terrible, bumping is against the rules Also, you meant Crusader's Faith, Boli. Not Faithful Cry I know how easy it is to confuse all our mediocre abilities.
Maergoth@Antonia Bayle wrote: Half our abilities have either faith or holy or divine in... hard to keep track at times
I had an idea that might help paladins and a few other game issues. Hate transfer should STAY CAPPED at 50% per INDIVIDUAL. BUT a tank shuld be able to have unlimted hate transfer from several different players. In other words Say a paladin is in an offtank group Paladin 40% amends on dirge Inqusitor Dirge assassin trasnfer Swashbuckler trasnfer Coercer transfer Warlock raidwide trasnfer to paladin Monk Raid wide transfers to paladin This is over 100% total transfer but it should stack up to each individual trasnfer limit of 50%. This leaves those high agro classes enough threat to still rip aggro but makes multiple trasnfer beneficial. There is also no need to prorate or scale transfers it would just be a striaght 50% w a hard 50% transfer cap per individual.
Gungo@Crushbone wrote: tbh I'll be happier if amends was nerfed to 15% and sigil to 5%... we might actually get some decent changes then :/
Unfortunately, sustained hate isn't the issue. Yes, that would give us substantially more of it which would be good in a lot of situations, but it would leave us incapable in some which other tanks do not have to wrestle with. Classes should excel at some things and be able to handle all things, not be bumped in and out of raid for specific fights because of class.. which is the way it is right now.
Also, Sigil currently bypasses the transfer cap to do almost precisely that Gungo. The problem is, if you're getting transfers from a swashy who is top 3 on the parse, or an assassin topping it, you really don't need more sustained hate. The math alone prohibits it. Top that off with coercer, wizard, maybe even summoner transfer.. Amends would be overkill. IF IT STACKED. Which it does not. So not only is it not necessary, it's not even applicable in most situations. It throttles based on the total amount of incoming hate transfers. Using easy numbers, if you're getting three transfers, one for 50 (amends), and two for 25 (Transfers), Your amends target would then be transferring 25%, and your two transfers 12.5%. Sigil of Heroism in the mage group is a powerful tool. It will generate a substantial amount of threat in a short period of time. On a non memwiping mob, you'll go from 80 to 100 versus another tank in around five to ten seconds, pending group setup. That's in a standard situation, assuming no further variables are introduced. Unfortunately, to understand the vast difference between sustained hate and snap aggro, sigil will ALSO get you from 0 to over 50 in 5-10 seconds. Problem? Yeah. Because even if we had the luxury of waiting 10 seconds to get a mob back, we'd still have to use two snaps on it. This is bypassing the transfer cap at 36% per person in the group, including pets. However, when sigil is up, it is the only transfer allowed to function. So how much are we really gaining? Referring back to my amends example, you're going from 25% on your amends target and 12.5% from both transfers, to 36% from everyone. 36% from everyone (maybe 2 actually useful targets), versus any other tank (30% from swashy/20-ish from assassin?) and 11% Coercer transfer. Gee, math puts that at.. close to or beyond 36%, and from guaranteed high hate targets. If it doesn't make sense, it's because IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE. -EDIT- Amended the aggro section of the original post, since it's important information I'm not sure even devs fully grasp. People understand hate transfers individually, but collectively.. not so much. -RE: EDIT- Lawl, amendedpast participle, past tense of a·mend (Verb) 1. Make minor changes in (a text) in order to make it fairer, more accurate, or more up-to-date.
Did hardmode spider tonight. Went well considering easymode spider's AOE one shots me. First I was on adds, but I only have Rescue, Sneering Assault and Holyground so that didn't work. Can't cast holyground while moving, sneering assault misses, and rescue has a long cooldown. For those that don't know how these adds work, they memwipe to specific classes often, including tanks (with co op), and start out with aggro on whatever the named is targeted on. Tons of it. So you have to snap it once to get it, and then get it back for the memwipe. They spawn every 30 seconds or so. After wiping the raid a few times because I can't handle a snap every 15 seconds, they put me on the named, put the brawler on adds, and I actually survived pretty well. All I had to do was stand a mile away autobowing until the memwipe/mez was do, run up and use holy ground and rescue, or holy ground and sneering assault, or holy ground and a coercive shout. Then I'd have the named for a few seconds, use all my saves, eat the memwipe/mez and run away again before the AOE one-shotted me through reflect. Super fun, let me tell you.
They should have used a guard or a brawler on the named as well... I mean a monk, guard or bruiser can snap back agro easier and has better survival tools; actually an SK or zerker on named would be better as well I Know how you feel tho I'm "re-learning Finndarg" with my new guild; a mob I've tanked and killed so many times I can pretty much tank it in my sleep. BUT since this guild hasn't killed him yet I am constantly dieing to one of the AoEs as obviously this defiler/temp/coercer/dirge combination don't know all the tricks to deal with a pally tanking this (bascially they need to get the hang of rotating their saves). I've tanked him in exactly the same group before and killed it. Sure it is easier with a warden in there but I have done it without... fact is I died so much they push me out of the MTing role to allow their bruiser to tank it as "well bruiser is a better tank line"; reguardless of my experiance with the fight. It just goes to show how much a pally leans on his group for support and leans so much that remove one of them and the entire thing collapses but brawlers are able to stand up on their own and don't need an "old man cane" to stand up straight. I've had to move BACKWARDS in progression to a mob I've killed many times before.... and I have been found wanting.... Pallys are a BROKEN class... we had issues in TSF, heck even in TSO and it was only through the skill of the players we survived as well as we did; right now it doesn't matter if we are: - Highly skilled player - experianced with the fight - overgeared for the encounter Since we are a pally we are not a viable tank for the mob.... Am I moaning?... well yes yes I am... but wouldn't you?
Really what you guys are seeing is all the stupid Mechanics that are supposed to be hard on tanks that Brawlers completely bypass currently. Wait till you see the HM Statue buff and how much that favors Brawlers. I mean a proc on a successful hit from Statue that does like 120k physical damage. So Plate tanks get hit more often which means they will get the proc on them more often...and Brawlers have the mechanic where when they are hit they proc 30% damage reduction to reduce damage like this from MAs and Procs when hit. It takes getting mobs nerfed down to normal levels for non-Brawler tanks to compete, meanwhile any guild serious about Progression only handicap themselves in the race if they do not use Brawlers.
We used a guard for both. SF wasn't so bad if you knew how to get extra DI triggers. Other than that, our class hasn't IMPROVED since TSO, everyone else's has.
Bruener wrote: mygod shut up. They are talking about GUARDIANS and brawlers and you make it a brawler issue. Zerkers actually have better aoe snaps agro then EITHER brawler with thier 2 aoe postionals and super fast recasts. Monks dont even have a single aoe snap. Look we all realize you blow at a class that isnt overpowered but this about PALADIN issues and the skill sets they lack. Warriors actually do well right now along with brawlers.
Gungo@Crushbone wrote: Guardians don't get a DR of 30% off a proc tho. In general a brawler will only get hit for 80k vs 120k for plate tanks. ... but yes this is a PALADIN issue thread... and has become a HUGE issue that PALADINS as the join most defensive (or second most defensive tank) has the LEAST survibility in HM raids. Is that fair? ... well I suppose it is if you think we should have low DPS, useless utility good agro (unless there are memwipes/blurs which is all the time now...) and die every 2min. perfectly balanced....
Gungo@Crushbone wrote: Sorry. Just explaining what exactly they are seeing. Call it being OP'd or game mechanics completely favoring your class if you want....but it doesn't change exactly what other Fighters are dealing with. Maeg and Boli are feeling the exact same issues that Zerks/SKs feel too....content making the class feel inferior. Survivability. DoV has gotten progressively worse in how much the content favors having superior avoidance and fast reuse on saves. Tanks that have an absorption ability to use every single 1 shot AE exceed the survivability of Tanks that do not have that. Mobs having MA and Procs that happen on a SUCCESSFUL hit mean that every little bit more of avoidance another Fighter has means they take a lot less damage. Its dumb mechanics that the ones that already have to deal with less MAs and Procs are also the same Fighters that get a built in survivability mechanic that procs if they do happen to get hit making sure they take 30% less damage on those MAs and Procs. Snaps. An ability with 1 or 2 hate positions is not that advantageous in a mob that wipes further down. Multiple snaps are important, and even better are abilities that can climb you up hate positions every time you hit the mob. Reinforcement and Mantis Leap are far better tools for mobs that will wipe multiple times, especially since they are on pretty fast reuse. Really things are that simple and thats why you have Brawlers/Guard destroying other Fighters in tanking in DoV. There is no doubt that adjustments are coming.
SKs are much better off than paladins. The only people who have any business complaining besides us are Berserkers, end of story. Shadowknights are the offensive crusader. Their survivability is where it should be, if not too high already. They have better DPS, buffs, and aggro. This is an unarguable fact, it's been established multiple times. They definitely have enough survivability to offtank effectively, and with cooperation from their healers, they are more than capable of maintanking any fight in the game. Paladins and berserkers are INCAPABLE of doing their jobs, be it offtanking or main tanking for a lot of content. Other tanks being better and doing things eaiser isn't the issue. It's a matter of capability and desirability.
Maergoth@Antonia Bayle wrote: And you are exactly 100% wrong. The issues that plague Paladins are the same issues that SKs have. I am sorry that you are not good at DPS. Bring Jeal back in here and he will show you how it is done I guess...how to parse as much as SKs, the real potential of Paladins. (Oh wait, you would be out of a job than too...) The fact that you seem to be overly sympathetic to Beserkers is just another huge hint that you don't know what is happening with current mechanics. The recent fixes Zerks received have them more tools to compete. Not saying they are completely to where things need to be, but closer than either Crusader atm. I am really not sure what you are after. As a Paladin you can reach equal DPS of a SK, you have much better heals, you have much more flexibility for sustained agro and you take less damage. Couple minor tweaks, probably 1 more reliable stoneskin or similar type of ability and Paladins are right back in the game imo. I mean, come on. Saying that SKs have better agro LOL. The fact is both Crusaders need some fine tuning, while some other Fighters need tuning in a different direction, than SOE can start making mechanics launch much more balanced against all Fighters.
