Runewind wrote: These 2 points about sum up my frustration with the runaround we've been getting on this issue, and frankly I would be happier to look at a bow, and get what I expect out of it. If that means making all the T8 bows (sans mythical) actually display they are worse than RSB (which they already perform that way) I'll take it and reluctantly understand, but the way these "radar" posts come off is you cant do that without making it look like we got the shaft, so you put it on us and hide behind the fact that these items look nice. As far as the PM thing, in all respects that was a PM so it may or may not have been tasteful to post it, but its the same generic response we have been getting for months now, and he clearly shows how much he just doesn't get what we are saying. He says we are able to top the parse sometimes, without the utility of an illusionist or brigand...but what about the illusionist or brigand that has the ability to beat us almost consistently (particularly the illusionist). We really don't need a radical DPS boost thats true, but we need to carry more DPS on our own rather than only perform "pretty well" in stacked groups. There is a significant element of our DPS that is flawed/missing and that is the lack of a decent T8 upgrade to our weapon(s) that is a little more practical to get than say mythicals and avatar gear, and while the mythical may be a good bow as is, it cant be the only solution to this massive problem.
I cant recount the last time i posted on these or any forums frequented by the main community, but this is rediculious. If what Aeralik was refering to as a single person who tops the parse zone wide, i know who it is he is refering to and the bow he is using, but if he expects every guild to provide the same group setup that this particular ranger is accustom to just to parse... he is sadly mistaken. I used to raid alot, at one point i was parsing in the top 1% of rangers, so i think i know this class very well, i have played a ranger in ever SOE game i have played. I stopped raiding before ROK as a result of my health and have just recently come back to the game in the last 1.5 months, and i know im rather out of practice, but can still hold my own. Im still inclinded to use my old bow, LBoC, yes i know, i should have been using a RSB, but i never aquired one, yet i could still top the parse on most single fights and hold my own on multi encounter fights in T7. Now i parse 2600-3k while im watching casters, brigands, assassins parse 4-5k and sometimes as high as 6k. Thats just plain wrong. When should a brigand EVER out parse a Ranger. And since when is a ranger supposed to trail so far on the parse when they are in the developers own words, T1 dps. How can Aealik say there isnt a problem when the only real upgrade to a rangers bow from T7 is the Mythical T8 epic bow. If it was all about equality, this wouldnt be so. I raid with a group who knows what they are doing, our dps classes are easily top 5% of thier respective classes, so it is against them i would judge the "effectiveness" of the ranger class. To say a ranger is toping the parse of a raid group whos dps isnt so top notch doesnt prove anything, it proves that those who are judging our class dont know how to correctly evaluate the class. In T7 rangers werent instantly at the top of a parse and did have to work to stay at the top, from knowing what CAs to cast when, where to make sacrifices for the next fight, to think critically about what you are doing instead of just button crushing. At Fan Fair, a ranger i know asked devs when were rangers gonna get utility, the response he got was, "isnt it enough that rangers are the top parsers in the game" and at the time, yea that may have been factual, but today, we have no utility, only 1 bow upgrade, and only with that bow do we come close to parsing what we should be capable of, Im not asking devs to hand rangers the game, but be real, how can you expect a T8 raid bow parse less than a T7 one... guess what devs... THAT MEANS ITS BROKEN... Now there is alot of side chatter about the reasons behind why rangers are so neglected, the most common one is class biased, the fact that our Devs play the game is a great thing, they experience problems first hand, but at the same time, it narrows their view and possibly makes them biased, this is a common explaination behind whats wrong with rangers, our dev is an assassin, he doesnt play a ranger... do i believe that Aeralik is biased against rangers, i hope not, i tend to hope that the problem is solely he doesnt play rangers and doesnt know, thinking that we are just looking for hand outs. But if there is supposed to be a balance between utility and dps, every caster and every scout brings utility, rangers do not .... wait... arent i stating the obvious, well if its obvious, why is it that devs dont realize it, oh wait thats been said before too... jeez i guess im running out of new points, just stating the same thing over and over again, oops there i go again, thats been said too How are game mechanics suppose to "work" as intended when the only ammo we have to use is a full tier behind and there are damage modifiers in place to insure that you CANT effectively use ammo from previous teirs and receive the same benifit inorder to save money, otherwise rangers would use tin arrows against raid mobs, that i agree with, but pigeon holding us with ammo is wrong, its pitiful
kartikeya wrote: You think that was flipping out? You obviously don't spend enough time on eq2flames. And I wasn't flipping out at Domino for posting that as much as "any dev" making a joke like that at this point in time. If I was flipping out, I would not compliment her specifically on the work she does as the crafting dev. And if it isn't white chocolate macadamia nut, it's CR*P!!!!!!!!!!!! (with apologies to the entire SNL crew).
I don't want any Buffs What I want is to be T1 DPS like I'm suposed to be - That's it. / Heck that was the description of Ranger when I chose it so long ago. There are plenty of things I believe that are wrong with the Ranger as a whole - but the Arrow issue is #1 ! Though I would like to add the ability to summon arrows sucks so bad, the Quality of Arrows from that is so Degraded it's not worth it. No reason upgrading from Apprentice Level at all. Would like to see The Ability to summon better arrows with Adept / Adept 3 / Master 1 - heck even through something in AA line mayby. Or take away that crazy proc on the Epic that says "chance not to use an arrow - seriously, come on now" that's such a waste atm IMO. Just let the darn thing summon arrows.
Beele@Nektulos wrote: As I said. I am as angry as anyone. Hell, I cancelled my account weeks ago and the only reason I'm here is out of some silly optimistic hope that maybe something will get changed (ha ha ha.) I'm really pissed. So I get you, I do. But there's being really pissed and then there's being so pissed that you start taking things like a light hearted silly joke and being so offended by the fact that a dev made a joke that you can't reply remotely appropriately without sleeping on it first. I'm not calling you out or anything, but I thought that was a bit much. Now mind you, if it was Aeralik making a joke like that, I'd probably be taking unmerited offense at it too. x.o But I mean come on. It's Domino. She has no part in any of these problems of ours (unfortunately, then we could get them FIXED), and snapping at her when she randomly wanders in from the Tradeskill forums just gave me a really sour taste in my mouth.
Agreed, mine was canceled as of yesterday and expires in two more days. That is the most effective way I can express my displeasure at this current situation, for sure.
It's sad to wave good-bye to so many rangers. I have received tells in-game from rangers that post here and rangers that do not; but they are reading forums. It's hard to say good-bye to people who truly care about this class. I am going to give it one more month myself. If there are no improvements, except the random comments, 'hey we extended the bard's songs for you guys! We'll get to the rest when we have time, but, don't worry .. ..' Oohhh wait, can I play a game show host here? Game show host: For 500 dollars what did the game dev say to the rangers about their missing ammo? Audience: It's on our radar! Game show host: That is correct! And for 500 more dollars, what is the most mis-used quote used by devs? Audience: Our data shows you're fine! Game show host: Correct again! Now, for the 3rd and final answer; you can double your money here... when will SoE do anything about it? Audience: When they loose enough money from canceled ranger accts to wonder why they are paying Aeralik's salary. Ding Ding Ding Ding... lights go off.. balloons fall from the ceiling.. the audience cheers! We win! Or do we? The masses say, 'good-bye rangers! You were always too OP, you probably deserved this! It's payback time!' (I am quoting people's comments from both of the popular forums that have been directed toward rangers). Too bad no-one seen this coming.. right? /snickers I sure hope they do something to correct this soon and it's not just a.. well we fixed this other group and that's a major impact on you.. fix. (unless that major impact would be fixing all buff procs to work off ranged now). I'd like to see some of my fellow rangers logging back in again. Hate to find myself on their side of the fence in a few short weeks. Fix the game mechanics already, quit making excuses and quit listening to those that say this is payback time for the rangers please. It's really unbelievably wrong that the arrow mechanics have continuously been put on a back burner somewhere.
Meerah@Permafrost wrote: Bravo....:stands up and claps, lights a lighter to wave in the air. Honestly just fix your game and broken mechanics, the time frame this has been a problem is ridiculous! Also hate ever calling anyone out, but the player community really needs a developer who understands this game, and the classes that make up this game. The posts we have seen in our forum from one particualr Dev proves without a doubt that he is lacking the qualities that this job requires.
i stopped playing my ranger months ago. the only reason i'm playing EQ2 now is because i also have a necro that i enjoy playing. the only bug i noticed with necro is the pet not running as fast as you and you have to use call servant. seems like in comparison everything is broken on rangers - so much stuff is fubar that i don't like playing my ranger anymore.
Woot Meerah FTW...that was funny good one ;-) Aeralik - get a clue, if other classes are up in arms about the plight of the Rangers, how come you can't open your eyes and see this ...ahhh wait it must be due to your Mythical : "Data" that "Shows us as fine the way we are" Therefore, we can only assume : a) Your data is more valid, and that we are all misguided and don't know our class. b) Your data or interpretation of it is flawed. Either way, as the community is up in arms...wouldn't it make sense to park your Uber Assassin, with his fantastic Racial Traits (some may know what I am talking about) and upgraded gear from RoK...and try slumming it with some of us Rangers. Dust off a level 57 bow from KoS, pickup a couple of thousand mastercrafted arrows, expert poisons and come have some fun with us in RoK. We could even get a raid going...oh that is if we can find a raid that will give a slot to a Ranger. We could even run the Epic Ranger quest, so we can get a bow to drool over for a second or two...before it is relagated to our bags - Just think one day in T9, we will be able to equip it - Woot something to look forward to. Sigh anyway, out comes the dusty old T7 bow again. Then off you go into the sunset, just another Ranger proud in the knowledge that at least we are unique - Not the class with the most dps, or any utility...but the only "Bag Lady class of Everquest" Regards Bara
Ive said this before, but go to eqflames to the guild recruitmant section, then proceed to look for a guild looking for rangers.Enough said on the state of rangers.
Aeralik, I want to thank you for answering my question in the Dev Chat today. I am still going to let my account expire tomorrow because I think that is the only way that a significant message will get through to the powers that be but, depending on what I read you are actually doing in LU44, I may be back to check things out. Unfortunately, rangers, I stupidly did not cut and paste the pertinent information, so I am going to have to leave that to someone else. The biggest thing I got out of it, though, is that T8 arrows, which are labeled 67 but are actually level 70 arrows (as we keep being told) and actually ARE level 70 arrows. The reason why RSB scales down in damage when you equip them is because RSB is actually a level 74 bow. The level 70 labeled RSB is actually a level 74 bow, according to Aeralik. If that had been told to us back in EoF, a huge swath of complaints coming forward to RoK might have been shunted away. Of course, that also means our epic fabled and mythical bows aren't actually 80, either, they are probably 84 and 85 or 86, respectively. So whoever is keeping track of the spreadsheet, good luck figuring out how to change your numbers now that whatever is displayed on the bow isn't actually what the mechanics are using LOL. Anyway, Aeralik has said that in LU44 (or GU44, whatever you want to call it), we will get level 70 arrows that are probably good up to level 80 (and maybe +5, so the epics don't scale down... much), our CAs will become more powerful (when combined with our more powerful auto attack from arrows suddenly working properly, I can almost guarantee that means our auto-attack damage is coming down), and we will get some kind of utility (which says to me be happy with the T2 dps you are doing now, Assassins R teh l337!!! Rangers r teh suxors!!!). He also said that we will get more things that proc off ranged, though the only example he gave was the crafted epic earring, which strikes me as probably the most horribly lame bone to toss to us as there could be. If anyone can cut and paste the appropriate parts of the chat, particularly the most important information out of the FFA part of the chat, not the official part of the chat, I would appreciate it. Once again, Aeralik, thanks for answering my question. I didn't expect to be there at all and, when I found I was able to, I was happily surprised that the ammo issue was allowed to be touched on. I very much do like the idea of having more focused discussions, and if we can arrange to have an IRC chat every two or three weeks, with a different part of the EQ2 represented so that no one part comes up more than once every couple months or three, I think it would be fantastic. The opportunity to discuss combat issues- whether zerker, ranger, or any other class- should be able to be done in a forum like that without having to wait for all the questions on lore to be dealt with- and vice versa. That, and pie.
Ask and ye shall receive. I'll repost here from the other thread. This is all from the ffa chat after the dev chat ended. <GwynethNajena> Aeralik, just to clarify on the arrows, did you mean that they would be useable from 70 and scale to 80 or only useable at 80? you can help clear up a questin in the ranger ww " /> <Aeralik> arrows are currently 67 to use which means a level 67 player can equip them. the arrows are rated level 70 though so for calculations and scaling they use level 70. the fix is basically the same they will be 70 to use but calculate based on level 80 <Aeralik> im also giving them a 5 level leeway so fabled items which go above level 80 for a rating wont scale down <nektulosbeele> Aeralik ummmm, small problem with that. If lvl 67 arrows are actually lvl 70, how come when you equip lvl 67 arrows with an RSB, the /weapon damage of an RSB is lower then when you had no arrows equipped? <Aeralik> rigid scale bow is level 74 technically so scales down to 70 <nektulosbeele> Ok, in that case, that is mind blowing, but it does explain things... so a lvl 70 bow is actually lvl 74, but a lvl 67 arrow is lvl 70... got it... Dude, that is screwy <nektulosbeele> Aeralik the only other thing all the rangers would like to know is if there is any significant number of other people's buffs that we will be able to benefit from <nektulosbeele> it is not logical that so many buffs benefit melee but not ranged... why an earring can benefit melee but not ranged... we all know you have seen the lists. <Aeralik> im gonna add rangers to some procs like the tradeskill rings but expect some changes to proc mechanics
Beele@Nektulos wrote: I would find this unlikely. The only reason I say this is because he did come out and say that while Rangers would get more procs the proc mechanics themselves would change (likely meaning a minor nerf of some sort). I still think even with the proposed changes WITHOUT an auto attack nerf, we would still likely be behind Assassins, but instead of 1-1.5k as I see often, it would be more like 3-600. That would make us the bottom to middle rung of T-1. If that comes with utility, then so be it, as long as I am not getting owned on the parse, half the time, by a Brigand or a Swashie anymore, I'll be happy.
Beele@Nektulos wrote: mmmm, I get the feeling that maybe a certain dev was being economical with the truth here. You can test this yourself. Grab a level 59 bow. Equip level 57 ammo that is supposedly level 60. Notice the damage. The bow is higher than the ammo, so it should be doing max damage. Now equip some level 67 ammo instead. Check the damage again. The ammo is still higher than the bow, so will be capped at bow level. However, does the damage on a /we go up ? If the ammo truely is level 60/70 then the damage won't change as in both cases the ammo was higher than the bow level. To save you the trouble of checking it yourself, the damage does indeed go up when equipping the level 67 ammo. So, either the devs are wrong and the ammo is x7 after all, or the level indicated on bows is completely meaningless. Take your pick.
Timtim wrote: Nah, you just used lvl 60 ammo with a bow that is lvl 60+, disregard the written lvl of the bow. Both ammo and bows are "wrongly" labeled.
Nothing like making life complex is there? While I'm usually very much a wait and see type of person in these situations it is a major concern that if the upcoming changes do not address the issue well enough just how long will we have to wait for any further tweaking to take place... I'd love to have the time to level a Ranger on test to 80 over the next few weeks but sadly that just isn't going to happen
Krakelkrak wrote: hehe, sounds crazy don't it ? I'm one for simple explanations and if we assume that ammo is in fact actually x7 in level, then all the issues we see with ranged attacks can easily be explained by this one simple assumption. But the devs would have us believe that actually both the bows and the ammo are mislabelled and that the RSB is in fact 4 levels higher than it says it is. The ammo is also 3 levels higher than it says it is, and that the level indicates the minimum adventure level of the player who can use. I guess this *could* be true, and they seem very confident it is, but I don't get the *why*. What possible reason could there be for making it so complicated ? I'm still not convinced though, remember when the old dev said "ranger autoattack isn't important, CA spamming is the key to max DPS" ? However, it does look like they're doing something about it now, so let's all hope that what appears on Test is what Rangers have been asking for.
One reason to have two different levels for the same item goes way back, when the level of the item in relation to the char altered how well it did. The lower the level of the item in comparision to the player, the worse it was to use. It actually went into dimishing returns as you outleveled it. Items had cons when looked at by different players. (I think that is why unusable items are red) Making a fabled item internally a higher level than the equipable level would make it last longer before needing to be replaced.
Giland@Guk wrote: This is very common in all mmo's and fanstasy games. Each item has two levels. The level listed on the bow that is used for equip purposes. This is the level at which you can use the bow. Then there is the item level which could be higher or lower than the listed item. This is so especially powerful item (or weak) can be made within the current tier. For instance, the level 70 uber weapon dropped from the hardest dragon in the game ({at the time), one would expect that weapon to be an upgrade well into the next tier. This is how they can accomplish this while staying within the itemization guidelines for gear.
