GangsterFist I think you are putting out bad info when you tell people that wizards are the only DPS they need. For one if a wizard was to chain his hi damage blasts no tank on earth would be able to taunt the mob off of him and he will die faster then just about any other character. Secondly your tactic is good for exp hunting in outdoor areas but it does nothing for people that want to do things like dungeon crawls. Lastly if I was to use your logic I would never pick a monk becuase they are not the best tanks.
Sorry, I did nto see this this post before. Its simple. The con of the mob is orange, all your equipment is grey. You probably will get owned if you try to tank it. As a fighter having up to date equipment and up to date combat skills is a must. The higher level mobs get the harder and faster they hit. Therefore you need more mitigation. Though light armor offers very little mitigation every bit helps. When your armor turns grey its time to upgrade to have equipment more of your level. So when you fight mobs more of your level you are more on par with them. Think of it as a color match system. Does your equipment match the color of the mobs you are fighting? If its close then you have better chances of doing well against them. If no, then you will take more damage, get hit more, and probably have better chances of dying. I hope that makes sense.
Hahahahaha Okay, whatever. I have done this tactic in dungeons. I don't even need to tank, mobs die too fast with three wizzards in my group. I did the throne room instance encoutner in 8 minutes. I did both parts, including running to both doors in about 8 minutes. Cuz I had massive AOE damage in my group. The mobs average level was 38 in the instance. The bosses were like 42ish. Our average group level was 37. So, don't tell me I can't do that in a dundgeon, because I already have. You want proof? Go to the eq2players site, and look at most mob npc kills. Notice how they all have the same group configuration? 1 cleric + 4 wizzards. Its because with massive AOE attacks you DO NOT need to tank. Also, I never said that wizzards are the ONLY DPS you need. You are twisting my words. Second, I also stated I have been in straight up scout DPS groups, and it has also worked. Third, I have stated I am usually just happy with a good group no matter what the configuration. Finally, I have also stated, there is no be all end all tactic. Plate tanks are not always the best choice. I will say in generally they do a better job than monks, but there are instances and tactics where they are not. So, go live up in your tower and keep a closed mind, I state these things only for your benefit nothing else. If I wanted to give out false information I would tell you to let scouts tank over a monk. I would tell you to let wizzards pull with a heavy DD spell. Why don't you actually go play the game and try this stuff out before you tell me I am wrong. Thanks, GF
Gangster you are totally wrong on two accounts: One mages are not the best DPS, scouts are. We were using a parsing program the other night with my group. Level 41 Wizard and me lvl 40 monk, both doing about 90ish DPS, the most he ever did was 103 DPS. He has 4 adept 3 spells (including his AoE and ball of fire - hits for high 600s). I was in my defensive stance also. Plus, the mage class has a hard time when mobs resist them. Second the color con system with armor and mobs has nothing to do with each other, or color matching. Its simply like I stated. If you look on an item it has a mastery level and a minimum level. The item is orange to you when you just have enough skill points to use it (say its min lvl 200 and you just dinged 40) and its gray to you when you have more skill than the mastery lvl. This is because your skill in say light armor goes up as you lvl, allowing you to wear better items. BUT grey'd items still give you AC and stat's, just not as good as maybe a better item that you now qualify for. I've seen plenty of guys out there using grey'd equipment doing just fine, do I recommend it? No. The con system for mobs is entirely different and does not relate to your items at all. It relates to their difficulty as an encounter for your level. Have I tanked a red++ just fine with some green armor pieces? You bet.
lvl 39 wiz frined of mine does 800ish dmg aoe. Spread that out across 7 mobs, 7 x 800 = 5.6k damage done to the total encounter. Now scouts are awesome dps, but their AOEs can't do that. So, when u got 3 wiz doing AOEs, + 1 souct + 1 tank +1 healer killing stuff, it dies way quicker than any othe group I have been in. Its just my experience. As for the color code system. Take off all your armor and put back on your quest armor which should be totally grey to you, see if you can tank then. I was making a simple analogy of how you can compare the con system, which is both for your equipment and creatures in this game. yes, you can have grey items, but if you have a full set of grey items you will get owned a lot faster than if you had items of your own skill level. That is what I was getting at. The person asked why it mattered and I answered it. So, therefore in certain perspectives we are both right. I don't see a reason you need to argue about it. As for looking at DPS of scouts vs a wizzard, I see it as total damage done to the encounter, not to a single mob. If you are fighting mutliple mob encounters, having three wizzards is a great thing to have. Is it the abosolute only way to do it? Hell no, thats a good way, I have personally done over and over across tons of zones. So, if you are doing more damage to the whole encounter you are killing the whole encounter faster. You guys need to lighten up. This is not EQ1, there is no one way tactic to do stuff. More damage vs the total encounter is more dps than vs one mob. Like I said, if you need proof go to the eq2 players site and look at most npc kills. You will see two patterns. The first pattern in 4 wizzards in a row. The next pattern is the 4 wizzards are all on the same server. Thats cuz the person doing it, is a 5 or 6 boxer. 1 healer + 1 tank + 4 wizzards. Its such an effective tactic you can do it while 6 boxing. The guy on the kithicor server is a 6 boxer, I have seen him in action. He has done this up to his mid 30s. Thats where I basically got the idea. 4 wizzards doing AOE spell on an encouter is way more DPS than anything else in the game I have come across.
So Gage, you are saying that you were putting out just as much DPS as a wizard? In defensive stance no less? I find this somewhat hard to belive. Have you done any other parses?
Yeah we parse most the time. I found it hard to believe to, but the wizard was the one running the parser.
How do monks compare to other classes then? Like scouts, and other fighters? Are wizards just not that damaging? Or are monks just very damaging?
Wizards are good for AoE, like Gangster said. Just his DPS wasn't much more than mine, and that is surprising. There is a parser listed on the forums for download in the gamplay section I believe.
Sure Wizards are great AoE casters but there are many times where AoE is the last thing a group wants. Fighting in places like CoB or SH where there are mobs all over the place that will agro when you start throwing AoE around. As far as 4 wizards and a cleric its called farming and isnt really about playing the game. If you look at the top damage dealers its all scouts. Mostly assassins becuase they have very hi burst damage. The real problem using the top listings for comparison is the fact that the have a limited number of tops. Most kills wizards most single hit damage assassins but they dont have TOP dps or most average damage per mob. So there is no way to use SOEs data to prove anything about DPS.
GangsterFist has done a good job at keeping positive and explaining tactics that we can use to tank, while still pointing out the flaws that we still have. Densetsu: Unfortunately he has not, he claims that monks cannot take damage and compares himself to someone a level higher, second I question his reset when in an other thread he asks how fast are bare hands. I am inclined to believe he did not actually look into actual numbers, repeated several times, and is claiming facts based on a flawed premise. He made a claim I am asking him to back it up, he made a claim and the burden of proof is upon him. He has failed to do so, so I give his comments the appropriate credit.
Mama- I don't quite see why you consistantly try to make an issue out of this. I explained my experiences of tanking. I also stated that a plate tank only 1 level higher than myself should not tank exceedingly greater than myself. They should be better because of the 1 level difference, but not by huge amounts. Not to mention your point is moot, as a lvl 38 monk I have tried the same thing with a 35 guardian and gotten pretty much the same results. So, level range really does not have that great of effect, unless the range of difference is great. I have just shared my experiences and the tactics I have used. The only thing left for me to do, would be to go purchase a copy of fraps, and then record both experiences, and then upload them so you can view it. Which is too much work for me to do, nor would I care that much to prove something to someone on an internet message board. You, have not backed up any of your statements with facts. You say monks can tank equally, yet you bring nothing to the conversation. I try to bring a consturctive critical observation of the monk class. No, monks aren't perfect, no they are not equal, but yes they are playable. I have stated many tactics used with my monk that have worked for me. Which is only to your benefit to try. I will not respond to anymore of "your wrong, prove it" responses unless you bring your proof to the conversation. I will hear what you have to say, and if you end up proving me wrong, then so be it. I will not make a big deal out of it. People can be wrong, I could be wrong, but I digress, these things I posted have been my experiences, both in EQ2 beta, and in EQ2 live. The monk has come a long way since beta, and I hope the avoidance tank is something of equal par to mitigation tanks all around. I post tactics to maybe help people figure out things, or improve on things I am currently doing. If someone else finds better combinations of things I do, then post it, I would love to try new things out. If you are going to sit there and just say I am wrong, or no you gotta prove it to me, then I will probably just ignore it. About the bare fists, there is obviously a scale based on level. Like a levle 40 monk should have 35 to 85 dmg with 2.0 second delay (fictional numbers for example only). I was asking if anyone has figured out the scale yet so I could compare it to weapons and such as a monk levels. So, if you know the scale of how much damage and delay increases as a monk levels I would like to know. Message Edited by GangsterFist on 12-16-2004 12:51 PM
Wan I think the problem is you are a GNOME!!! You should have been a human or half elf . They get bonus points for sexiness :smileywink: . Message Edited by Vivicka on 12-16-2004 04:49 PM
Well, a smart wizzard will not just nuke his heart away. If a wizzard wished to pull aggro off the monk he could out DPS the monk by wasting all his power by nuking. That is probably why DPS is similiar, the wizard was conservative with their nukes for group effeciency.
I'm a 24 Monk and i solo Green^^, and even soled Green^^ named mobs, I'm highest in our guild playing on the fighter archetype and im always the tank and we do red^^(full group) and orange and yellow ^^ with just me and 2 healers (24 mystic and 24 templar).
My 2cp on DPS. Been running parses extensively during nightly grinds and since numbers are useless im not gonna post em, just my pure findings. These are parses on characters ranging from 40-45 in level. I wish i could get a full group of same level to parse on but thats [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] hard. Assumptions my damage is 1.0 dragon stanced with FBSS haste and weapons that con yellow to me. (Cerebus fighting sticks) Others damage will be given in factors where 1.5 would be 150% of the damage i deal. 1. Assasins : 1.8 to 1.9 damage 2. swashys and brigands : 1.3 to 1.5 3. wizards : 1.3 to 1.5 4. dirges : 0.8 to 0.9 5. bards : 0.4 to 0.6 6. Bruisers 0.8 to 0.9 There are no bruisers my level on server best parse i have is a bruiser 2 levels below my bet is the do 1.1 to 1.2 when same level. The character level can vary as i discribed, also the quality of gear might vary. There are 2 other BIG factors power availability and mob lifetime. with an enchanter in group so power is unlimited assasins seems to shine less and brigs ans swashys seems to catch up. Also monks bruisers and wizzys come closer to eachother being able to chain attacks. The shorter the mobs live the more the assasin will shine also, having big [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] attacks with long refresh this is a given. All other classes seems to benefit from 1 min+ fights......but alas avarage lifespan of a mob is 32 secs for my groups.
