Says the guy who won't engage in a discussion about anything anyone else has brought up. If the devs deem it necessary to change brawlers in that way so be it, but you're only suggesting nerfs and not compromises. Your whole argument has been 'it'll work, trust me' and 'it's not an issue'. You want brawlers to suffer a dps nerf, a more restrictive role in raids, a hate generation nerf, and justify it with 'you'll be able to dps!' without even a boost to non-tanking dps. You asked what would dissuade brawlers from main tanking? Pro tip: heavy handed nerfs without gaining something somewhere else isn't the way to go.
The real question you (and the devs) should be asking is what incentive could we offer brawlers to not main tank? Subtle difference, but massively different reaction. ps. edit wouldn't work, hence additional post.
Right click the edit button. This thread has a Javascript error that's why it doesn't work. Aaand Silzin beat me to it.
Sure i'm some random bruiser alright. I also happen to play the EQ franchise since 1999 without droping subscription for even a month. So if anyone is a veteran it's me, and since my early EQ1 days i witnessed the endless battering of people thinking because they invest the time and energy to compete on a WW basis, they are somehow more entitled to certain aspects of the game. They visit Fanfaires, talk to devs, play themselves up in a virtual world. In the end, who ever said that Brawlers are supposed to be emergency tanks ? Seriously, please show me a link to a page where a currently active developer of EQ2 states whether or not certain fighters are suppose to MT or not. If you are unsatisfieds with your own class, by all means, open a thread and ask for changes. And if you're only hurt in your feelings within your own guild because you can not achieve what a fellow fighter can, don't go off trying to nerf them. Try be a little less narcistic and egocentric. It will also serve you well in RL.
No need to post it or prove it. It was said on Ventrilo. Stop trying to derail a thread about monk changes (both positive and negative) by saying nobody but yourself is entitled to an opinion.
It was said on ventrilo ? Oh I'm sorry, that of course if proof enough How about we bring in the topic of the ever increasing Protection values on Plate fighter shield and the non existance of Brawler offhand weapons with Block chance as a non-effect on them ? Since i'm derailing anyway you know. Instead of trying to nerf brawlers you could seriously try to adress your own classes's issues.
You mean the protection values that didn't go up for 3 expansions? Or the fact that brawlers can STILL dual wield block chance weapons? My class is fine. Buffing everyone but brawlers serves the same purpose as "nerfing" brawlers. If you can't wrap your head around that, you should have had a V8!
This thread is a joke. Its a bunch of non brawlers talking about how brawlers which are a tank class shouldn't be able to tank. The best part is Maer claiming devs have confirmed they never wanted brawlers to main tank which pretty much goes against pretty much every conversation I have ever had with the current class dev and the one before him. Fact is you guys are just trying to bully your way into brawlers being ignored in every single update like they have been since DOV launch. But the truth shows that monks need some adjustments because by far this is the largest thread on the tank class form so thanks for making it easy to spot. Also this whole emergency tank thing is such a joke I swear. There is no role or encounters that require anything of the sort, you are pulling crap out of the air, this games whole dynamics would have to change for that to happen that would include all defensive temps being removed from all non emergency tanks.
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. A 50% nerf to brawler DPS while tanking and a 25% boost to brawler damage while not tanking is FAR, FAR from "Brawlers not being able to tank anything". Furthermore, you haven't done any content that requires an emergency tank. When you step foot into Siren's Grotto, let me know. Because that's the way almost every raid zone is going to be from here on out. Read the thread, make SOME attempt to inform yourself, and stop shoving your nose into places it doesn't belong.
Seeing how I raided in sirens grotto with you how would I have not stepped into it? On top of that i also tested it with the devs when it was still in beta. It requires tank swaps of any tanks and I have seen you and a SK swap fine with no brawler needed for the swaps as a I tanked another mob away from both of you that didn't need swaps. I don't really care about brawler DPS output while tanking or not tanking, those are absolutely easy adjustments to make, if the argument is brawler dps who cares. I mean is that really your stance here that brawlers need less DPS when tanking and more DPS when not tanking because honestly I am perfectly fine with that, but its useless it won't fix the problem that if temps aren't up brawlers go splat which has been my point this whole thread that you think you own somehow. The point is you are making this whole emergency tank crap, it doesn't exist, you can just as easily swap with any other tank class, they also have temps they can use and snaps to grab agro until the grotto debuff resets. If you want some sort of emergency tank class then drop all defensive temps from all other tanks because every single tank class can 'emergency' tank. You guys act like brawlers are the only class that can snap a mob and live for 30 seconds lulz. As far as putting my nose where it does or doesn't belong this is a brawler thread I play a monk you play a paly, who do you think belongs here over the other?
Oh, so you HAVE been in Siren's Grotto? Well then! You know exactly what I'm talking about! Who are you again? If you don't care about brawler DPS output, but still disagree with me, then you obviously haven't read a lick of this thread or my posts in it. My whole argument was that if you reduce brawler DPS while tanking, there will be a REASON FOR THEM NOT TO DO SO all the time. In turn, adding MORE content that will utilize the brawler's strengths and DPS gain (It will be a DPS gain over-all) would maintain their place in a raid. The counter argument, in total, was that brawlers would A. Not be able to hold aggro for the duration of their saves, B. There is no way to design content that will utilize brawlers specifically, C. Brawlers would be crippled in heroic content, and D. Are meant to be the best tanks in the game anyway. All of which are false assessments, because the results lie in the details. I'm in this thread because the devs are looking for ways to bring brawlers back into balance, my opinion was asked and the ALTERNATIVE to my suggestions is much more severe. Incentivizing brawlers to be behind the mob is not the end of the world.
That alternative would be reduction in temps or defense capacity making a brawler exponentially harder to heal or keep alive for durations longer than 30 seconds I assume? Like it was in TSO for many guilds?
I still maintain something would have to be done to solve A (and if the changes aren't epic-only the solution to A would also have to solve C). One of two scenarios will happen if you only adjust dps and not hate: A) 50% dps is sufficient to hold agro for a reasonable length of time, therefore 125% dps is generating far far too much hate and will require the brawler to stop dpsing at regular intervals. B) 125% dps generates just enough hate to not rip off the other tanks, therefore 50% dps will not generate nearly enough hate to hold it off those tanks, and possibly not enough to hold it off of your T1 dpsers. Realistically you need a hate reduction while not tanking and a hate increase while tanking (*OR* reliable force targets so your actual hate number isn't an issue, but that wouldn't solve the hate problem in heroics where you don't have other tanks). Edit: Or maybe a hate siphon only targetable to tanks. So whichever tank you're trying to pick it up from you'd literally steal their hate for a short time. Which again, wouldn't solve the heroic problem.
Since the time you first came into this thread you have been talking like you are “THE Prophet from the GODS”, what you have to say is Law, we need to just trust YOU that it will “All be OK”, and that the “All Mighty GODS” could not be bothered to come down to US Mere Mortals and talk to us themselves. I can see that you have an ego that is larger than all of Norrath… I can see that… I can see that you are 1 of several tanks in the WW #1 guild… I can see that…. I don’t care. You ARE “Just a Man”. Just like the Devs are just Men and Women… like the rest of us. We are all mortals. So give us the dignity and talk to us like such. Next I will address your ideas Once AGAIN. A. Like Malleria said, If we can do T1/T2 dps when not tanking and you are going to make it so when we do start tanking we lose 2/3 of out DPS without some VERY massive Hate gains this will not be able to be done. B. Why and the Hell do we need to be made NON “Real tanks” in the first place so we cannot be eligible for the Real Tanking positions anyway? To me it’s not about not being able to get 2 or 3 raid mobs in an Xpac that would NEED an Emergency Tank, but its Why should I not be Allowed to be able to MT on a Monk IF I wanted to? If Brawlers where Pushed off of the tanking map to the side to just be this ET then there would be a token 2 or 3 mobs that you have to have your brawler for and then there would be an Alt that gets their brawler so we can get past this one and move on with the real tanks. C. Heroics … there SHOULD be NO need for an Emergency Tank in group content. Brawlers still need to be able to tank group content Without having to Over Gear the content. D. Brawlers are not saying we have to be the Best Tank at everything, but we need to be able to tank like the “Real Tanks”… the Plate tanks that is. E. I don’t trust you to be speaking the “Will of the Godly Devs”. My biggest problem with your recommendations is that, Brawlers SHOULD not be allowed to tank with US Plate Tanks, and IF you do it should only be for the time your Emergency Invulns are up then you SHOULD Die. The idea that we should not be able to survive against the most basic EM raid Mob without having HM Raid gear and the best healers in game… is outrageous. Players created their brawlers to tank, not DPS while the Real Tanks are doing our Job for us. There have been several ideas for other approaches to what could be done to a problem that YOU ARE CREATING, and you have not even begun to address ANY of them. Until the Devs come down to EARTH and talk to US Mere Mortals I WILL NOT believe you.
I looked at your most recent progression kill on your stream, it seems you are just full of it, all three tanks were within 100k dps of each other. Are you saying Sard should be doing half the DPS he did which was only just under 300k anyways even though you and he and the sk were pretty close in DPS? I think maybe you are now just making things up.
What I'm saying has nothing to do with current DPS specifics. I could post you a video of an avatar kill where I topped the heal parse, that doesn't mean my heals need to be nerfed. You're selectively picking out a fight which may or may not be relevant at all. With that said, all 3 tanks were within 100k of 300k. You do realize that is a 30% window of difference, right? 30%?
