Monk changes – or at least things that are Useless

Discussion in 'Fighters' started by Silzin, Apr 24, 2013.

  1. Silzin Active Member

    This thread is about AA and other Abilities that monks have that need to be changed or is useless. Also I would like some type of Proposal for each problem.

    Brawler Tree-
    Str – this line has its place… not for me, but it does have its place, so it is fine.

    Agi – the only think that needs work in this line is Altruism – it needs to be made so its Death prevents is the last thing in the order of DP’s. I like using this on healers and if it was last DP priority then it could also be used on tanks.

    Sta – this is an old staple for me and I think a lot of brawlers also, this is nice as is.

    Wis – this line has its place, it could use some updating by changing Crane Flock to be a Blue AoE, but I am not sure this is needed.

    Int – other then the Crit this line is useless. I am not sure that ether brawler needs more defense, but it would be nice to have the option.
    Eagle’s Talon – this is +Parry a contested stat and if you are doing progression (pre 90 raid content) I guess it would have some effect. This probably should change but at the same time all of the avoidance skills for ALL tanks need to be looked at.
    Eagle Shriek – this is “If under 50% you have a Mit buff and Auto Attack Multiplier”. This ability is useless in all content, even solo so let’s see what we can do. Make it give a 10 sec buff when we drop below 50% it gives the Mit (maybe some dps thing also.)
    Eagle’s Patience – this is a Stone Skin, if Eagle Shriek is changed as I proposed then making this have 1 Stone Skin if the buff is up would work I think. Its not a always up, but should help.

    Monk Tree
    Will of the Heavens – I think this AA needs to add all Detriment types.

    Alternate: Mongoose Stance – gives a replacement for Dragon Rage as a dehate. With the 3 –hate positions we can get in reckless I don’t think this is needed, but if it is going to be left the amount of -hate it gives needs to be upped so when buffed it is giving at least -10k to -25k tps

    Shadows Tree

    Battle Hardening – it would be nice if this was just a few % of DR

    Riposte Mastery – this is useless but so is the damage from reposting so I don’t know what to do about it without revamping the riposte system.

    Offensive/Defensive stance AA – these are both useless since they modify contested skills… well offensive stance may have some use since most tanks have weapon skills on the O Stance… ok

    Thunderous Strike – Lightning Palm would need to be made worth casting in order for this AA to be worth taking.

    Mending Spirit – this is just Reuse and most monks can get Reuse max or near max, can we get more heal amount added to this AA.

    Heroic Tree

    Hostility – on beta I saw this doing over 120k tps on a group of trash but like 5k on 1 mob, its OK since monk normally have problems with AOE agro. It would be nicer if it had a small dmg added to it.

    Tag Team – another short term melee only avoid…. I don’t think that an 8 second Dodge is going to be specced for by any monk… ever. Let’s see, it started off as a broken hate swap, if it worked then it would have been VERY nice with mem-shuffles… I think an all damage Stone skin would work here, remember it needs to be something that makes the brawler wants to drop CM for it.

    Stone Cold – a decent group DR. I can see a use for this ability, but it could also use some buffing to help it compete with CM.


    Fluid Combination – the damage on this needs to be upped a lot so it can compete with double conversion on dps. A factor of x3-4 would not be unreasonable.

    Winds of Salvation – this needs to give the monk something. I am not that selfish of a tank, but I need to be getting something out of the defensive side of the Prestige tree here, come on. This can be left as is and just give the monk everything that is given to the target. This would mean only 1 of them would get the AoE avoid and the other gets the DR, regardless of who has agro.

    Tranquil Breeze, Winds of Serenity, and Crushing Winds – this may need looked at if my proposal is taken.
  2. The_Cheeseman Well-Known Member

    With the AAs, Will of the Heavens already cures all detriment types.
  3. Bchizzle Active Member

    Monks are in bad shape right now. I cannot fathom why they were completely ignored with the last update. For one mobs are hitting harder than ever with big hits at a slow swing rate which totally kills a monk since they have the least amount of damage reduction. Secondly they dont even avoid more than plate tanks and cant even reach avoidance caps as easy as plates. No reason not to replace every monk with a zerker right now. Basically you have swung monks back to getting one shot when avoidance temps are down you have forced monks take CM over any other choice and prestige wise there is no reason not to do anything but double conversion.
    Kirlia likes this.
  4. Bchizzle Active Member

    I would buff lightning palm and make it groupwide. Its the same recast as Dragonfire it should be more powerful. I would fix eagles to run for a decent duration when it triggers. Id give monks a group buff something which makes them wanted in any group not just pigeon holed in a melee dps group for CM. They also need some damage reduction. Id make altruism work hell make it groupwide.
  5. Everdog Member

    I found Siren's Queen (or something) had 'you evade it then this proc hits you' buff on her.
  6. Kirlia New Member

    Altruism needs to be tweaked to actually work on a merc. As it is, it has no discernible effect.
  7. Errrorr Well-Known Member

    As it stands, the STR line is a pretty good line for levelling up. Remember that the trees are not all aimed for level 95 top end raiders. I think out of all the subclass trees, monks have one of the best overall. I think having 1 line that works well for people levelling (or soloing) works well when you have 4 other viables lines (Except maybe Altruism, but reuse in that line.)

    Would be a global fighter change, and wouldn't really achieve much long term, they'd just end up raising future mobs damage by the % they added for a reduction as all tanks would have it.

    Another ability that can be considered one for levelling up again. Its very rare to find a monk below 95 capped on reuse really.

    Tag Team could use some kind of revamp again I think, even if it was just made as another snap (Cause monks clearly need more) it'd be more useful than it is. However I can't see any ability being taken over CM for DPS, or Stone Cold for Defensive. An all damage stoneskin would give monks a near constant save rotation, very high dps, and great survivability. Would be totally OP as tanks I think.

    Stone Cold is pretty useful now for certain defensive/progress fights. Recast on it is low enough that it can be used frequently and effectively. For defensive fights I think its about right.

    Whole right side bottom half could use looking at overall I think, Waveform is nice passive dps, but reducing the mobs attack speed and a dps proc from behind are pretty weak. Fluid Combo is a waste of space currently.

    Winds I quite like as it is currently, works well as an OTing ability, or if MTing can be beneficial on healers/scouts. Winds of Retribution could use looking at I think though, instead of max hp maybe a damage reduction.
  8. Regolas Well-Known Member

    Really? I play a bruiser and a zerk and the bruiser (who I assume is pretty similar to a monk) is still a better tank. We have a ton more damage prevention and the highest HP of all fighters.

    I love my zerk but I've been asked to play the brawler for raids... tells you everything really.
  9. Bchizzle Active Member

    You should look into your zerk a little more, they are crazy powerful right now.
  10. Obano Well-Known Member

    Monks being in bad shape right now has little to do with the last update. This had been writing on the wall for a long time. Constant nerfs to your class over a long period of time will kind of ruin it after a while. At the same time other classes were receiving constant buffing just leads to an unbalanced situation overall.

    The avoidance of plate tanks is a itemization issue though. Brawlers never get +block chance on their weapons anymore. Brawlers have to wear older weapons to match avoidance plate tanks get from their shields. Shields get better every update so this problem is only going to get worse with time. Balance in eq2 has always been one part honesty and two parts hypocrisy. When brawlers were able to get near the mitigation cap the whine from plate tanks was incessant. Now that the situation has turned in terms of avoidance the silence is deafening.

    Hiza and Estred like this.
  11. Estred Well-Known Member

    I had to do some research but I noticed this trend as well. The way I always have viewed the Plate vs Leather tanks has been.
    - Plate Tanks: Soak damage.
    - Leather Tanks: Avoid damage (but when they do get hit it hit's like a truck).

    I think it is a bit unfair for a Brawler to have almost identical mitigation and almost identical mitigation, while not losing a 2nd weapon. I however do think Brawlers are being hurt a bit unfairly. Monk/Guard/Pally are the quote-unquote "Main Tanks" and they each should have unique ways of doing so.
    Alenna likes this.
  12. Bchizzle Active Member

    I am so tired of simple minded people saying that it is unfair brawlers get 2 weapons instead of a shield. Brawlers shield is built into their defensive stance they cannot block without their defensive stance and the difference between offensive and defensive DPS wise is exactly the same and swapping in a shield for a guard/zerk. Get it straight or stay off brawler threads. Even worse than that a plate can swap into a shield with one click while a brawler has to cancel their current stance then cast their defensive stance.

    Obano has it right, monks have basically been screwed since POW launched. Our mythical cloak was complete garbage, we have been ignored and nerfed while other classes have been massively buffed. Even beyond that some of the claims out there are a complete farse. So lets set it straight...

    Monks don't have as much mit as plate tanks stop claiming they do.
    Monks don't avoid more than plate tanks stop claiming they do.
    Monks prestiges are bad and really the only viable choice is double conversion.

    Good monks can get the job done, but other tanks are in much better shape.
    Silzin and Obano like this.
  13. Silzin Active Member

    The Block changes can only be done throw itemization changes, this is the really bad part, since itemization in eq2 is SO BAD.

    I think that changing the Int line to be a Defensive option really is needed and would help.

    Make Altruism the very last thing triggered as far as Death saves go.

    Re-revamp Tag Team.

    Both of the Prestige trees need a good work over. Everything past Fluid Combination and Winds of Salvation need to be changed.
    The Right side needs to offer a lot more damage than going Double Conversion.
    The left side needs to offer more survivability in some way.

    I don’t care how for most all of these, but these think I think needs to be seriously considered.
  14. Typos Member

    good luck..i retired my monk. I'm having way more fun on my healers.
  15. Regolas Well-Known Member

    I know what my zerk can do, and since CoE they have been getting better and better. Still don't see them being requested for raiding though. Yeah they'll do a job there, but all tanks can.
  16. Bchizzle Active Member

    Zerk is probably the highest in demand tank right now.
  17. Estred Well-Known Member

    You can swap shield/weapons and stance with 1 click, any class can; use a macro. In defense though you still have the added damage of a 2nd weapon that a plate-tank does not specifically a non-crusader due to them having a Shield-Stance. The difference is more a warrior thing and isn't relevant for a brawler thread.

    I never claimed they avoid more currently, I said they should avoid more. As for your prestige, I haven't looked so I made no comment. I also never said they have as much mit as a plate tank, that was Obano who made the reference to when Brawlers were able to get near the mit of plate. Now avoidance is a bit out of whack because everything can be capped.

    Try agreeing or supporting with others on changes you feel should happen rather than belittling someone simply because they are not your class. That never kept you off the SK threads, and heck they are fine, even I was proved wrong with what the "cast on run" change would cause, which was near nothing for PvE other than a "quality of life" change.

    Anyway Bchizzle's belittling comments aside. Back to the topic of monks, yes their prestige needs a look at. Dual conversion should be an option but not necessarily the best option for all occasions. Itemization is broken but then again it is broken for most every class in some way, mages are really shafted over priests for desirable stats currently. I already said how I feel they should fit into tanking; Less mit more avoid when compared to a plate tank. As skills are capping out give Brawlers an ability for a 20% flat dodge chance for 30 seconds, that would certainly up the avoid rates without having to deal with uncontested values.
  18. Bchizzle Active Member

    You should read your own comments, you said you think its unfair for brawlers to have almost identical mitigation and dual wield, now you are claiming you didn't say that. Its easy scroll a few posts up, I know you post like 10% of this message boards total posts so keeping up with all the stuff you post must be difficult. And your point of macroing, that doesnt matter it is still 1 cast for unstance one cast for stance vs a plate who just swaps in their shield immediately.
  19. Estred Well-Known Member

    Ok, that I will agree with. Sometimes it is hard to keep track.

    From my own post after having scrolled up, I will admit I did not when I responded which was an error.
    "I think it is a bit unfair for a Brawler to have almost identical mitigation and almost identical mitigation, while not losing a 2nd weapon."

    I will admit this was inaccurate of me to say. So thanks for pointing that out, however please don't just insult me when doing so as I try to not insult your intelligence. I think we did manage to figure out what I meant and that is what I meant in the quoted portion. Brawlers imo should have less mit and more avoid when compared to Plate Tanks. Their stances make up the difference in DW vs Tank-Weapon, but itemization is wrong for that currently.

    The issue with Warriors and Shields is mostly a Warrior issue, not a brawler issue. Warrios have no way to get offense from their shields. Crusaders have Shield-Spec and for Brawlers it's a 2nd weapon. So in fact Brawlers are fine, it's Warriors that are behind on that respect and I won't comment on that again in this thread as it is not a Brawler topic.

    Also if you are interested I am about 4.5-4.8% of the posts on this board, not a fact I am prideful of but it's there. I am interested in what you think of having a temp-boost for Dodge to make up a bit in the difference in avoid/mit. I do not see much impact in raids, but the brawlers I see usually are doing quite well and coordinate with their healers.

    My idea would be maybe for the Brawler Tree (as Silzin was suggesting with the INT tree I think). A temp-skill. I would say 2 min recast (base) and lasts for 30 seconds of +20% flat-dodge. If I remember right INT is the Crane line, so it could be named Crane's Intuition.
  20. Bchizzle Active Member

    You get offensive stats from your shields as well as the fact you have things like reversal where a block adds to your DPS. I have no clue what kind of agenda you have going but you are treading suspiciously into Duele territory with your complete underplaying of the things your class can do while exaggerating the benefits other classes have.

    This whole line about brawlers should dodge more is just dumb, we had that years ago and all it did was lead to brawlers being one shot when RNG messed them over for avoid. I honestly think its fine that all tanks avoid within like 5% of each other but also they all should absorb within 5% of each other and that simply is just not the case when you look at monks who get 0 damage reduction while some tanks are shooting up to 100%+. It simply isn't viable to have less avoid, less mit, and less damage reduction and be a great tank and that is the state monks are in right now.

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