Strac, you could have said what you intended to do with far less of being a jerk you sound like some random bruiser who is afraid he will be nerfed into unplayability and is letting that cloud his judgement. About the whole woe is having to adorn/refrge for hate. Well I can tell you unless they do a Guardian and even SK's somtimes can't hold hate against a good T1 without transfers/hate buffs. I have tried it many a time and while one is a horrible sample size the way EQ2 works means it's enough for me to make a small generalization on. Reading what Maergoth is saying, he is saying that all the tanks should have rolls. Bruisers and Monks serve to aid the other tanks and perform a key roll no other tank can through controlling the fight using the skills they have available. I don't see him saying anywhere that Paladin's must be MT all the time. I believe in fact he said any class can MT, just some better than others. If a Brawler, Bruiser or Monk wants to tank a named or a group of adds they lose the higher DPS they have making the player choose between tanking or supporting during the fight. Look at the Guardian class. They do roughly 50% less damage and still hold aggro while tanking. Though they probably are the weakest tank in the game right now outside of their stoneskins which are the only reason a Guardian is even considered for tanking. Really why would you take a Guardian? They have low DPS, only one good single target Taunt (Reinforcement) and the ability to band-aid other tanks into the hate list (Recapture). - They don't survive much better than a Monk or Paladin since mitigation is almost moot now between the tanks. - They don't have stronger temps in fact they have to be cast within a moment of their death to even work. - They don't have stronger aggro tools as their force-target's do not effect Epic's. After all since when has Plant or Cry of the Warrior been useful beyond threat generation? - They have significantly lower DPS, I think I said this already. So, yeah from where I stand Monks look like the all round best choice for MT for both Survival and Damage. Maybe a few new fights make it tough for them, well goodie at least they are used. It's been said multiple times by multiple people that there is a serious issue behind all the tanks trying to do the exact same job.
A guardian telling brawlers they have stronger agro tools. That's rich. More snaps does not equal stronger agro. And the force target problem isn't a guardian one, it's everyone. Bottom line is a 50% cut to dps while tanking is too big a cut to hate generation. Brawlers literally have nothing but their dps to build hate with. No siphons, no massive taunts, hell even the snaps we don't share with other tanks have little or no actual threat built into them, just positions and damage. I mean, your argument is that a guardian does half the dps and is still competitive for hate with a brawler (actually they're a lot better off than a brawler, but for arguments sake we'll say competitive). How does it follow then that cutting half of a brawlers hate generation will keep them competitive? It won't. It'll cripple brawlers. How do you propose brawlers emergency tank when they can't tank in an emergency?
I mean in terms of rapid acquisition. Guardians have plenty of tools yes but they have only 2 taunts they can rely on; Reinforcement and Rescue. Sneering Assault, Cry of the Warrior and Recapture are "well I hope this works" taunts as one effects all Fighter Allies. Bruisers have Drag. Both have Mantis Leap. Both of which are pretty much guaranteed to work. So seems they are about equal in snaps though Reinforcement takes about 5 seconds of combat arts to actually build enough hate. Well, continuing on arguments sake being made to deal reduced damage while tanking would also mean that while tanking, their taunts would be increased or maybe even a taunt effect added to an existing skill. I highly doubt a flat reduction would be done with nothing to compensate. That goal of course would be that a monk or bruiser can pick up a mob and hold on to it for however long is needed, but they lose that bonus DPS. That hurts the raids DPS and means that getting the dead tank up quicker will then help the raid even more as the Brawler can go back to DPS and controlling the fight when needed. Guardians pretty much have to have 45% Hate and a Dirge/Coercer for 100% Hate to be viable against a Monk for tanking threat levels. I say that from 3 Years of HM-Raiding. I know a number of monks though who don't bother with Hate Adorns because they don't have to due to DPS.
So do exactly what I proposed? Sounds good The issue with this thread is people (who supposedly have the devs ear) are wanting to make these sweeping nerfs without any thought to the consequences, and without acknowledging realistic alternatives. Come to think of it Amends is probably one of the best tools an emergency tank could get. A toggleable large siphon from whatever high dps/hate class you choose? You wouldn't need a lot of snaps, just throw on amends and use one snap and you'll hold it as long as you want to. Maybe pallys should be forced into this role instead
I am not going to try to break down and do a comparison of each tank snaps against the other tank snaps. But if you are trying to say that Sneering Assault, Cry of the Warrior, Recapture, Plant, and Reinforcement don’t count as reliable snaps… then we need to get “Snaps” working again. Since Mantic Leap, Sneering Assault, and Provoking Stance all fall into this category of not working right or right away. Monks in an Offensive Spec will do more dps then a guard…. Give the Guard more DPS Option…. But when the monk uses all of the Defensive Options that we need from AA and Prestige to survive the really hard mobs the monks dps drops by a ton to around the same as the Guard’s dps. Also (if this change is done) the plate tanks will have the choice to betraying between an MT type class and an OT type class…. The 2 NEEDED tanking rolls in every raid. But Brawlers will all be stuck betraying between a CC tank and a CC tank.
Well Silzin to be brief. - Sneering Assault is only 3 Positons and I do believe that if the hit is blocked the threat is also blocked. - Cry of the Warrior again is easially resisted by many bosses. If it's resisted the Taunt Effect is also wasted. - Recapture works, but rarely for the Guardian. It raises "Fighter Allies" so it's a snap that makes other tanks look better. - Plant hasn't been a viable taunt option since KoS days from what older players have told me. I would think that Monks take more damage penalty for tanking than Bruisers because of the MT vs OT Emergency position. The goal I would think is that a Monk could tank a named for as long as needed, but at DPS penalties. What would be decreased is their ability to deal damage. Taunt's would increase while tanking while DPS would decrease.
Until a dev says that, assume it isn't true. Afterall our dev correspondent doesn't think its necessary
To solve the aggro issues brawlers would encounter, I'd just attach a significant threat boost for the next X seconds onto each of their snaps. You could make it inherent for the class specific abilities and an AA option for rescue and sneering assault. Something like +500% hate gain (obviously ignoring cap) for 10 seconds should be enough, no matter how low your dps would be while tanking. This would also allow better sustained aggro in a group setting by simply spacing out your many snaps. Alternatively, you could attach the big hate boost to avoidance/defensive abilities, but that wouldn't work as well imo because sometimes you hit those to absorb an aoe while not jousting or to give the mt extra avoidance through the transfer buff. It could work with a little creativity though by making the threat boost apply selectively on those abilities.
@Quabi, Reforging to hate gain is nearly effortless. In addition, we're talking about content that will require, not just suggest, an avoidance tank or snap aggro for a certain period of time. The rest of the time would just penalize the brawler's DPS for tanking. As for aggro concerns: Yes, aggro will be a CONCERN. It won't be an impossibility, but it will be a concern. By snapping a mob off a tank, you're assuming top of the hate list plus ten percent. Meaning, assuming the tank isn't barely holding aggro already, you'll have plenty of time to fight off aggro decay and the rise of third on the hate list. @Strac Sorry, your lousy attitude isn't worth my time. I've already explained all of this, you just refuse to read. This whole thread is just repeating over and over. One side saying "It can't and shouldn't be done", one side saying "It can and should be done" and another side just scared to death of change. The *ONLY* legitimate thing said in this whole thread is that brawlers will not have the option of betraying into a different role. While I agree, that is lame, it's the same for almost every non-fighter class in the game. You betray to fill your role a different way, not change roles. And again, you'd still be able to do either, just at a disadvantage for once.
What makes no sense is you're actively rooting for a system that produces much greater hate generation when the tank doesn't want to tank than when they do want to tank. Reforging to hate gain will only make it that much harder to dps in between the times brawlers would be needed to tank. And really, I don't know how much experience you have playing a non-pally tank, but 10% on a hate list isn't much at all. It's very easy to lose that 10% in a hurry if you're not producing enough threat. It only wouldn't be an issue if you assume the brawler would be generating the same or nearly the same amount of hate as the tank they snapped it from, which they obviously wouldn't be after a 50% dps cut.
I raided on a monk and zerker in ROK and TSO. The hate generation from behind the mob may become an issue, but that's easily resolved 100 different ways. With proper implementation, these side effects can be mitigated. Again, the idea that damage and hategain are unfortunately intertwined for tanks complicates the process, but shouldn't prevent the process.
Not much point arguing it anymore, since you absolutely insist there won't be an issue. The last couple of pages haven't even been about preventing the process, but rather a possible solution to the hategain problem. Tell me what is so bad about upping a brawlers hate generation at the same time you reduce their damage output? There must be some catastrophic downside that no one else but you can see.
If all Brawlers are made so we cannot tank like other tank can tank, but we are neutered when we even attempts’ to, then all brawlers everywhere will probably just quit. For several years people have been creating brawlers as Real Tank, if you just heavily handed say well yall should be happier now at a non Real Tank and deal with it …. A LOT of people just will not deal and leave. I have come up with real ideas to make monks less desirable and yet keep out capability to tank, by making us make decision in AA and Prestige. If something similar is done for bruisers that brings then out of the MT role and into the OT role then your probably is fixed. This would probably make some people that only play brawlers because they are easy tanking move to other classes but would not Kill Brawlers as Tanks Completely. Unless you have an agenda and are trying to just eliminate Competition at which point I will just stop listening to you.
They don't have to be intertwined. They could just give Brawlers as much threat as they need to make up for the damage loss. But then, if they could hold sustained aggro, they're still contenders for the MT spot. Assuming aggro is somehow manageable (more threat or target locks or whatever), another issue with your plan is that guilds could just use two ETs instead of an ET and an MT. I mean, you have to swap aggro all the time anyway (in order for the ET role to exist), so why not? The idea of a third role is interesting, but I don't see how it'd ever really work right...and a significant change at this point of the game may not be the best idea, anyway. Personally, I'd rather see them just give every class 1-2 clearly defined strengths/weaknesses and just let everyone do everything else.
That is where the idea that is is supposed to be noticeably harder to keep a Brawler alive while they MT than a Plate Tank comes into play. Sure they can avoid damage and mitigate it though temps but that still won't make up for that they are wearing cowhides instead of steel fortresses. Back when 10-20% more incoming damage was mitigatiable but notably harder to heal a Brawler through (SF was the first time I really saw a brawler MT but with difficulty). Now that mitigation difference is a 1-shot to a Leather Tank. The issue with giving them as much threat as they lost is that they are still going to be MT's over other classes due to survival and being able to buff other's DPS better than another class can. Leather Tanks gained mitigation and Shields scaled into the territory of high avoidance. Mobs began hitting like trains to make up for the fact that 70% of incoming damage is ignored and of the 30% left about 50% is mitigated. There is more of an issue here than just Monks being able to MT but not being the best MT, which many say should be the Guardian by class design. I say that not because I play a Guard, I also play a Paladin and I see them as amazing option for Support-Style offtanks while Brawlers fill a controlling OT position and occasionally the MT position. When I first joined the game the thing that leaped out at me about the 6 tanks from their class descriptions was. - Warriors: The real tank classes either MT or OT respectively. - Crusader: Support style buff-tank either helping mages or healers can deal with swarms. - Bralwers: DPS oriented Emergency Tanks that buff the scouts and other tanks. Now after four years of playing I see. - Warriors: A workable tank but really low damage, better off taking another class. - Crusaders: Your OT of choice and sometimes pally as MT. - Brawlers: Your MT of choice and a good OT. Now granted that is my own personal observations and I have only been as high as the 8th guild WW and really, I could care less about that. I have done End-Game when it's current enough to know a few things. It seems things got flipped around TSO times when suddenly Warriors being the MT/OT wasn't fair enough and now all classes have to be MT/OT's even though Guilds during TSO made Bralwer MT's work, but it wasn't easy. I feel that over time since TSO the roll of the Warrior has fallen by the wayside especially for higher end raiding.
Currently, the best bet IS to use brawler MT brawler OT and throw an SK on any spammy adds there may be. Doing so following these changes would still be viable, but you'd be losing a lot of DPS, and you'd be rotating saves solely for self preservation instead of utilizing the avoidance transfer and benefits of a tank who deals better damage while tanking.
Yeah, but if they wanted to nerf Brawlers, they could just give them a definite weakness like Paladins with snaps or Guardians with dps. I'd suggest removing the mitigation that was added to the self-buffs around DoV and maybe toning down the Heroic AA "Unrivaled Focus" to make "spikiness" their weakness. If the developers don't like the idea of "spikiness" as a weakness, they could aim for any number of other possible weaknesses, including DPS while tanking, but none of it really has anything to do with a third tank role.
@Maergoth the question post to you was not how can nerf brawlers so they think its not a Nurf.... it was. “How do you dissuade brawlers from tanking, without preventing them from being able to do so?” several alternatives to your ET tank have been suggested. mostly a few tweeks to monk to be a bit less OTing and Bruiser to be a bit less MTing. from there a few other tweaks/adjustment may be needed to each brawler. next make sure Guards have all of the tools they need to be MT, and give them AA/Prestige options to be able to DPS better when not needing all of there Hard MT tools. then adjust any other tanks that may need it... i think the rest are 95% there.
If they where to change cleric reactives so they triger 1s off of each and every hit, even MA's and Flurries then making us more "Spikiness" would work. it then would be harder for healers to keep up with the reactives, but doable.
Sorry, but I fail to see why occasionally removing a chunk of DPS is worse than removing a chunk of defensive capabilities. You guys are too worried about your outgoing damage and just don't want to talk about it. That's abundantly clear. Which is fine and understandable, but mostly irrelevant in the long run.
