Ack. Now I'm horribly confused and also concerned given tha ID is such a class defining skill for us. So please help me understand: 1. So ID is not currently proccing off of multi-hit CAs. Got that but frustrating if true. 2. Been wisdom line since before ID, so unclear: Does ID currently proc from dual wield offhand hits? I always assumed that to be the case ,,, 3. Are they going to take away ID procs off of Double Attacks as well other procs? This would clearly not be fair and would make ID ridiculously more effective for dual wielders if #2 above is true. Can someone please set me straight, so I know if I need to be worried and if so about what exactly.
1. Partially true- it procs on the first attack of a multi hit, but not the subsequent ones. 2. No. It did before the offhand proc was removed, but currently it is main hand only as is every other proc. 3. ID is just another proc. No reason to supsect it will be treated any different, so it will be removed from the double attack.
I have a bad feeling that normal weapon procs will NOT work on DA post this change. Although it should be the only proc that really should proc off DA since DW can weapon proc off either hand. I know it won't be very noticible dps either way, but it seems that most of these minor offsets are always in the negative equating to less dps for us. ID has had the same description since it's basic mechanic was changed from damage shield to damage proc, many many months ago. Since then it has always state "With every melee hit..." Fix the description and I wouldn't have a problem with the way it acts now.
I would imagine the only reason offhand weapons still proc innate effects is to allow them to proc at all, while avoiding extra coding. The alternative to would be to code offhand weapon effects to proc on mainhand weapon strikes, and I'm sure that coding would be significantly more awkward than simply keeping the old offhand proc mechanic for weapon effects only. So I don't think weapon procs should be allowed to double up any more than other procs. If the argument against that is comparison to DW... that was part of the loss of giving up DW for DA in the first place, loss of offhand stats and procs. I'll be interested to see how this change is implemented, though... Will it strictly affect only "double attacks"? Or will it be a more basic code change: Procs may not themselves trigger further procs? Double attacks are procs with a % proc chance, just like any other proc effects. So up until now they've been... procs that can proc additional procs (!). And this is exactly what certain other proc effects have been allowed to achieve up until now -- notably the interrupt proc on our offensive stance, rangers' Quick Shot, etc. Will this change to DA affect only DA, or will it be change that whole basic "procs proccing additional procs" mechanic and stop procs from interrupt, Quick Shot, etc? I can see that it might well be the latter -- again, to give the Devs better control over DPS, putting less DPS in the hands of % proc chances. It would kinda suck, because it would mean another small piece of our DPS chipped away, but personally I've always thought it kinda odd that some procs can trigger other procs. ... did that make any sense? Edit: horrible spelling and grammar =P Message Edited by overfloater on 04-27-2006 02:21 PM
Makes sense to me! I think they are targetting DA specifically, sounds like it from the update notes but that doesn't always mean it's the full story. An example of the second scenario where procs cannot proc other procs: Let's say a scout is using a weapon w/damage proc and the bone clasped girdle. The scout hits a mob and triggers the weapon proc, the weapon proc is not allowed to trigger the bone clasped girdle (chance to proc of a successful spell). The proc percentages on the second scenario seem low enough already that it rarely happens. I'm hoping they just focus on DA.
[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], you talk a little bit, people agree with what you say, but if you keep talking, they'll fine something to condemn you with . I was actually unaware of that, thought that it still procced all 2 or 3 times on that. Thanks for letting me know though
Just me or has anyone else dumped thier WIS line now? I'm starting to think Strength for certain but I'm unsure as to what my secondary line will be. I'm seriously starting to consider the STA line for situational purposes. I like the HP % increases and the STA buffs along with the aggro management abilities. Would be great not having the need to look for a tank for group zones anymore. I'm guessing a swashie at that point would be a pretty good tank, not that we aren't already without this Line I do love the idea of having FD as the final INT skill but, I REALLY hate all those passive deaggro capabilities. There are numerous times in small groups I need to grab aggro from NPCS to prevent a healer/caster death then pass it back to the tank through some evades. The auto deaggro stuff would ruin my play style. The agi line has little apeal to me apart from Walk the Plank. The final skill, Sailwind, reduction in recovery, isn't too bad a skill either but, it would be situational. Recovery on my AOE's would rock if i need to take down large groups quick, apart from that, most of the attacks aren't really HUGE dps increase, I view them more for the utility of the debuffs which don't really need costant refreshes. I'd probably end up running out of power to quickly in Raids and in groups well, they've got enough dps as it is. The situational burst dps you could produce would be nice but not always necessarry. just a few thoughts
Just to make sure, because you seem to be confusing the two (or at least you are from the way I read your post)- sail wind affects recovery time, not reuse/refresh time. Reovery is the time before you can use another attack or auto attack after using a ca. Reuse is the time before you can use the same ca again.
I'm still keeping WIS. Full STR is a must for me. The only other skills I'd be even somewhat excited about are INT4 and INT5 or AGI2 and (a little bit) AGI4. Feign Death isn't enough for me to go full INT line and I haven't had enough aggro problems to warrant INT4 recently (especially once they remove procs from double-attack, though I guess that will lower our deaggro procs too.. hrrm, dunno on that one). AGI2 is useful in groups and soloing, but more often than not I actually find myself cursing the people that spin the mobs around, as it ruins a backstab I was planning half the time and just confuses the hell out of me in general. I don't think the Avast Ye proc is high enough to make it worthwhile, but maybe someone with that line could tell me.
In response to the fluke...Your right. I misread. They should change it to half recast times in half if you ask me. Either way, I still will probably choose another line.
I know I'm going to max out str and for time being I'm keeping Wis line. Even with LU23 nerf, I don't think wis line would be any less then dw line. If you say you want to go dw for stats, in reality, do you really need that extra stats during raid or in group?
I'm a forum newb or just lazy to figure out how to include previous posts in my message heh....so in response to.. know I'm going to max out str and for time being I'm keeping Wis line. Even with LU23 nerf, I don't think wis line would be any less then dw line. If you say you want to go dw for stats, in reality, do you really need that extra stats during raid or in group? ..... I wasn't considering stat benefits of duel wield. I am just weighing the benefits gained from the other lines vs. going down the wis line at this point. To me, I'm thinking having the option to go tank with aoe taunts and a shield, increased HP and dps outweigh the benefits gained from going down the wis line now imho. Wis line was an obvious choice before, not so obvious now. Too bad though, I enjoyed the look of the 1 hander. just a few more thoughts
I've looked over the trees again and there are only two ways I would personally spec. STR+WIS or STR+STA Stamina line. Ultimately less than duel wield damage. You will hit the +DPS cap so early that miss out on damage. Also, you need to be in defensive mode for some it. If you have a regular group though, or find yourself tanking often enough, this line is well worth it. Damage wise though, it is sub par. Wis line. I feel that with this new LU they will put in some better 1 handers. Currently in the cobalt tier weapons are 37 and 49 (1.3 times the damage). With DA this is 37x2 vs 49x1.8. (Actually, it may be 39 and 47...even with that wis line is ahead slightly). You also get increased parry and defenses. Bascally a WIS specced swashy is carrying around a shield and duel wielding simultaneously. That really puts the wis line as the jack of all trades line and fits my playstyle personally. WIS line isn't as specialized as the other lines and that is why I initially thought it weak, but really, it has its niche. If your playstyle puts you in a variety of positions on the fly going from damage to offtanking in a fight, then WIS line fits. If you have a more consistent group where you have a specific role, the other lines may fit better. Like I said though, the high tier weapons are loaded with stats and procs and really, the damage on the duel wielders is very close to that of the 1 handers. I think that they will need to add some 1 handers simply to fit with the damage ratings up to the high levels. It would also be nice for the WIS line to double main hand stats and allow weapon procs on DA to go since you can weapon proc an offhand weapon. Rogues should unite and demand a big selection of 1hd daggers, rapiers, and swords with damage that compares to the duel wielders. (This is from casual reading and what I have seen so far. If there are adequate 1handers that I am not aware of then I withdraw that last statement)
I do not believe thatany of the Stamina line now requires defensive stance. I am currently stamina spec only 4 points into swear though and only thing that is required from top of my head is a round shield to use swear and to get the dps bonus. While str might be a better pairing with Stamina I am considering pairing Wisdom with it as Coule gives a boost to many skills that would improve ability to take a hit and can swap out a shield as needed depending if you need the extra mitigation and when you want to use swear. From all I can tell the 2 end skills of Sta and Wis would complent each other very well and neither has a requirment to use other then have of course 4 in the skill above it. Will be a while till I get to this point but I think this is my current plan.
I think the Hold the Line proc on STA5 requires defensive mode, and rightfully so, 'cause otherwise it'd be quite a drawback in a lot of situations.
I went for wis before the whole issue with double attacks was even discussed and it was generally seen as a weak line. I got no intention to respec because they are changing an AA skill, as no matter what, normal CAs and AAs will keep changing and jumping on the FotM isnt my thing or id never made a swashie back when I did. Life as a minor class will always keep goin up and down and one can either roll with it, or reroll from it as we will never be priority #1 when so many more popular classes have more serious issue (both overpowered and underpowered). Im saving my first and free respec and hope Ill never feel need to use it.
Well, if the ranger is any good and doing his job, there is no way in hell a swasbuckler would out DPS them. We have 3 rangers and we parse a lot and they are always WAY up on the DPS list. There is no way a swashbuckler could come close, at least to our rangers. Heck, we have a monk that does more DPS than me and we both have killer gear. Monks just get a lot better weapons. I'm going full Int (already) and full wis. I LOVE my FD. It's helped a lot and helped save me a lto in repairs too. I have survived and been able to res a healer using it. The extra deagro has been great. With all the new changes and other classes doing more DPS (especially after the next LU), they really need to revisit ID and hurricane. Hurricane needs a major boost in proc%. It has been needing an adjustment since all the nerfs lately. Message Edited by Scortch on 05-02-2006 03:46 PM
Spending points in FD and then complaining you arent doing enough damage doesnt really mix if you ask me. Dont get me wrong, FD is fun and I understand why many people choose it, but when doing so you must be aware you have chosen to not maximize your DPS right?
Umm, I also have the wis line so, I do have a right to complain when I have the FD Just because I haven't dumped all my points into the wis line, still doesn't negate the fact that other classes don't have to dump all their points into a certain line to max DPS. Monks can have 2 lines and still have t2/t1 DPS. Our rangers were doing a LOT of DPS after the nerf and before AAs. Then add in the fact that our wis line is getting a huge nerf. Message Edited by Scortch on 05-02-2006 06:02 PM
I think he was saying that since Int line doesn't have anything to improve your damage, you aren't doing full damage potential. If you go wis-str line, you would do close to or better dps to ranger.
