Figured it was something like that... thanks Keyh. Since I never planned on going wisdom, I don't feel the effects of this that most of you feel, though I do feel for you all. Tyric Greenblade 64 Swashbuckler - Int 4-4-3 First Prophecy BlackBurrow
A little short on time, but... What I meant is that CAs generally form a much greater proportion of your DPS when soloing, except for those who say they just kill yellow solo mobs no sweat with autoattack alone, hehe. For me, at least, soloing is all about CAs and the autoattack DPS is negligible. On raids though (and, to a lesser extent, in groups) you'll usually see a much larger component of autoattack damage, so that's where you'll see the greatest benefit from double attack procs. That's where I was going with that. Personally, if the skills could be picked individually, I would never pick double attacks if I spent the majority of my time soloing and didn't really raid; but then I would never pick LR and the parry/riposte if my primary focus was raiding (or even grouping) . As it is, I hate soloing -- hence I would almost never find LR or the parry/riposte increase useful. The double attack DPS does sound attractive for groups (which are my focus) and raids but I'm not willing to dump 8 points into two abilities that would do nothing but collect dust. That's why it seems the WIS line is a slightly awkward split. Some people will like the branch and will find the different aspects useful, but the skills aren't so hot as a single functional unit the way (for example) STA and INT are. More like the WIS.2/WIS.3 and WIS.4 are almost... mutually exclusive (obviously not quite that extreme, but that's the direction I was going). Not trying to criticise people who want to take WIS, nor is it a "weak" branch if it happens to suit your playstyle. But its functions are split in such a way that I think many/most people won't actually find it suits their playstyle: double attack isn't half as effective when soloing as it is when raiding; DA would be useful if tanking for a group, and so would LR and parry/riposte, but STA would be better; and DA would come into its own when raiding or grouping, but then LR and parry/riposte are wasted. If you switch between all of those roles a lot, no doubt you can find a use for WIS. But if, like me, you tend towards just one or two of those roles and playstyles, I feel there's a better tradeoff of cost vs. utility (not necessarily DPS, don't get me wrong, WIS wins there) in a combination of other branches. All depends on how you play. Message Edited by overfloater on 04-25-2006 02:57 PM
All it takes for Soe to make a change is a bunch of whiners to cry their eyes out on the forums. I cannot believe that they are screwing you guys, when they are parse evidence from rangers thay are still on T1 slot. When Bruisers can out DPS scouts, when conjurers can out DPS everyone by double. I swear I think they pick classes out of hat and then decide how they are goign to change them for the so called balance fo the game.
Well said brother.. here is the deal everyone who whines on this game doesnt get their class upgraded they just get everyoen else nerfed W.A.R is coming out 2007 baby start your engine
The thing that amazes me most is, I could careless about Conj. DPS, Necro DPS, Ranger DPS. The bottom line is these classes are in your guild, these classes are in your group if you whine and [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and moan you are really hurting yourself in the long run IE: You are not grinding as fast, the Epic mob got off that last flurry, AE and you wiped. BUT if no one complained etc. maybe just ,maybe you might have gotten your lvl last night, killed GodKing etc. I am not saying SOE is not going to notice things but when people make 5 page threads about how a Conj. and his pet soloed WHINER^^^ and got all the phat lewts.. Bah just stupid. Sadaen 68 Swashbuckler Blackburrow
My main is a Brigand but I do have some sympathy for the situation of classes like Rangers. I feel they warranted adjustment but they got nerfed because of the hue and cry on other class forums. Now that they've been adjusted are they supposed to just keep their mouths shut when Swashbucklers post on the Ranger forums that Swashbucklers out dps Rangers with their hands tied behind their backs? Given the performance of Rogues with WIS AA, and given the willingness of some Swashbucklers to dance and shout about it, it is not reasonable to suppose that the Tier 1 classes will just sit there with their mouths shut. There were no shortage of Swashbucklers prepaired to explain at length how Amazing Reflexes needed "fixed". There were no shortage of Swashbucklers able to bemoan Rangers being a T0 class. It is not reasonable then to simply label the other classes whiners because aspects of combat that impact Rogues are being brought inline. The biggest thing that drew dev attention to Rogue dps output was not other classes. It was Rogues. We're the ones that couldn't keep our mouths shut. And it wasn't just Swashbucklers. There's one prominant Brigand poster I could cite who is very fond of quoting his 2k raid dps. Lets just suck it up. See how it pans out and not turn into whiners ourselves... The Rogue classes played as much a part in this happening as any other class. The situation with Rogues and WIS AA was completely out of whack. It was going to be fixed. It was obvious to many people from very early on. It was obvious because the WIS AA made us Tier 1, and we're not a Tier 1 class. We provide an awful lot more than just dps. Leave the other classes alone. It's for the devs to sort them and my own suspicion is the devs are determined to bring the classes into some sort of balance before they role out extended betrayal. Some of the classes mentioned in this thread are having their damage output addressed.
The bottom line is that no class is responsible for nerfs. These discussions about "oooh T1 DPS got rogues nerfed" or "swashes helped get rangers and brigs nerfed" and the rest of it is just [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. For one thing you're lumping a group of people who use a message board into a coherent entity (which is simply not true), and for another you're assuming that people get nerfed because of message board posts. Look at this patch, we're getting a spell proc nerf. Is that because people were complaining about bards and chanters being overpowered? Finger-pointing like the devs are helpless to do anything besides the whim of twenty people on a message board is ludicrous almost to the point of hillarity.
QFT If what other classes really mattered... Summoners would be t5 dps. Also, we should thank SOE for this nerf, since some people on blackburrow server think we are "exploiting". http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=101399&jump=true Message Edited by Geero on 04-26-2006 05:17 PM
Your experience of onlin role playing games does not then extend back very far or across much of a range. Consensus formed within the community visible to the devs whether the game be EQ2, WoW, DAoC or EQ1 most definately does impact the devs.
I think he was referring to the fact that your previous post implied that it was the fault of swashbucklers whining that AR got changed, that rangers had their DPS reduced, etc. As if classes purposefully pit themselves against each other and it's primarily the fault of one particular class that another gets nerfed. That may not be the way you meant it, but that's how it came across. Consensus opinion certainly isn't ignored completely but it's also not going to be the sole deciding factor in Dev changes. Again, I don't think vocal rogues were the primary reason behind this change. This change needed to be made from the moment it went live, regardless of DPS parses after the fact, because it counteracted all the proc mechanic changes that the Devs had focused on since DoF. They've been trying to make proc opportunities less of a factor in subclass DPS, because procs make DPS limits far more variable and tricky to control, and double attack procs went and threw a massive spanner in the works, completely contrary to all the other proc changes in the last 6-8 months. As Aeralik pointed out, this change wasn't aimed at rogues. Dev control over any subclass's DPS will be affected if they get an increased number of proc opportunities. And increased proc opp's will have the greatest effect on those classes that already get a lot of DPS potential from procs... hence rogues see a major impact. This isn't a nerf because rogues are doing too much damage; this is a change to give the Devs back more control over subclass DPS boundaries. It just happens that the rogue WIS AA line was a perfect illustration of why the Devs need to keep that control by keeping close tabs on proc opportunities. Message Edited by overfloater on 04-27-2006 08:00 AM
The way rogues were parsing with the WIS line, you had to know it was coming. If they keep track of the events at all, like they claim, there was no way to hide it. Doing better then T1 DPS classes - every fight - shows up. Knowing you were doing that much damage, you cannot say that you didn't for one second think that it wasn't meant to be. We shouldn't be procing everything we have on double attacks. It was meant to make 1 handers a viable option, not make us T1 DPS. See how it pans out and move on IMO.
Back to beta EQ1 my friend. The biggest, ultimate, omg must nerf posts are usually like ten vocal people going back and forth with the occasional noob wandering through and saying "gee that sucks that these people say my class sucks." Sure, swashbucklers helped call dev attention to the WIS line by posting huge DPS and then saying they expected it to be nerfed. I'm glad of this, just goes to show you that we have some great swashes here who aren't so busy trying to hide their 1337 damage and exploit a broken game mechanic. But regardless of who pointed what out to the devs, the devs are solely responsible for changes they make. They have their DPS charts, their facts and figures, they know the formulae and core mechanics of the game. They're neither beholden to a couple whiny people on the message boards nor locked into their suggested path for class balancing. Take your finger and point it squarely at the dev staff if you feel the need to be laying blame.
after 8 months of hacks , a 'Major' combat revamp, an 3 More months of Hacks , I'm glad these people work at SOE instead of somewhere Important. whats the POINT of paying for TWO dual wields instead of one double hander, if they don't do more damage ? Whats the Point of getting faster weapons with less damage, if they don't have a chance to proc more often. Whats with this behind the scene BULL about normalization, or the Official Documentation about it ? Not some hack notes buried in SOEs continuing beta test. Whats the Point of Mulitple hit attacks, if they Don't Proc ? SOE hacking has turned a Positive Class trait into a Negative. Whats the Point of Buffs an Mods that Reduce CA cast times , when SOE Hacks turn another Positive into a Negative... and another off topic example, how far do you have to have your head up, to put the proceedure for marking Inventory Items NonSellable, In the ONLY place where you could sell them , with a mechanism that actually Includes the probablity of making the error ? a programmer, a supervisor, an a qa should be spending some quiet time in studyhall, or go back to flipping burgers Message Edited by baddog on 04-27-2006 09:41 AM
I think its a shame when anyone gets nerfed. It hurts the overall guild dps in raids as far as I'm concerned. I'd rather see SOE up other classes DPS rather than screwing with what people have been working towards and lowering others' skills to balance the invisible dps tiers out.
I agree with most of what you said, but just had to point this out since I just found out a couple days ago myself. They used to proc off flurries even after the multi-hit proc patch I'm pretty sure, but somewhere in between then and now they've stopped procing off every hit of a multi-hit. ID only procs off the first hit of Uncanny Response and Whirl of Blades. Test it out for yourself -- I didn't believe it at first either, hehe.
Proccing off subsequent hits in a multi hit combat art was removed a while back. I don't remember which update but it was mentioned in the update notes. Proccing off multi hit combat arts was unfair to classes that didn't have multi hit combat arts. It gave advantages to Rangers/Swashbucklers vs Assasins/Brigands.
Did they change it for ID too? They changed multi-hit attacks a while back (Jan or Feb this year) so that only the first strike had a chance to proc. This was true for everything except ID (and, I think, CoB), which continued to proc on every strike of a multi-hit CA. Did this recently get changed for ID also? I'll be disappointed if that's true, because the reason for removing multi-hits for other procs was to fit the normalisation rules (1 proc per CA, normalised proc chance based on CA cast time)... but ID and CoB aren't normalised, they're a 100% proc chance for a short buff duration, so it seems odd to apply the multi-hit normalisation conditions to them. Message Edited by overfloater on 04-27-2006 11:45 AM
Yep, I know what you're saying, and just checked it today and ID was only going off the first hit of Whirl of Blades and Uncanny Response. I fully agree it should get changed back
