Frostwrath has a rating of 77. The best fabled onehander probably have around 80. However, we can also use two handed Wyrmsteel which is 104. Wis line will still be very much viable after the change. I'm sticking with wis line for several reasons. 1. The look. 2. Extra avoidance 3. One less slot to spend dkp on. 4. No body in raid seems to want one handed weapons. As opposed to those highly sought after dual wields. 5. Don't underestimate Lung Reversal. The Agi line doesn't really grab me. If I respect I would have gone STA or INT but for a combination of raiding and soloing I find Wis line very attractive. The only problem is, fencing with an axe looks silly.
I love this forum and I go to it to improve my game. You guys that post alot have a lot to contribute and it's appreciated! Don't underestimate how many of us read the news, but don't neccessarily make the news. And don't underestimate our love of the game and our quality play. What makes this forum so popular with us is the facts (parsing results) as well as the opinions - all in a helpful and mature tone. My comment: Fourier wrote: How could anyone see this coming? That is, a nerf to an AA line that would make the player about as effective as having '0' AA? ...was not suggesting that no one saw the nerf coming, but as implemented who would want it or expect that is should be downgraded to weak-sauce? It was not intended to suggest it was not forseen or to jab at those that forsaw it. I apologize if some took offense. The 'I told you so tone' is out of character for this forum. Actually this post did not ignore the additional procs, it was unaware and uninformed of them. Dakkon provided the accurate information 30mins later with his actual experience. (A poster, at the time, coming out of the woodwork - the irony.) But that's OK. My only point is that real experience is taken seriously and conjecture/predictions with a grain of salt - but they do help us make informed decisions.
Yeah, apologies for the "I told you so" tone. Specifically tried to avoid that in my first post in this thread, then just gave up for that last one cos I couldn't figure a way around it while making my point. I've spent quite a lot of time debunking myths and "nerf" cries over the past 8 months (poison changes around LU#18 were a favourite, heh), even preempting them in this case. So it's a little frustrating when people still claim that changes are totally out-of-the-blue despite warnings and predictions; even more irritating when the implication is that we're enduring nerf after nerf after nerf, woe is us, the whole class setup is wrecked -- no deaggro procs from double attack causing aggro issues, no interrupts borking utility, huge DPS loss putting us out of whack for the DPS tiers, etc. -- from a change to just a single AA skill. Heck, if nothing else, the extent of the reaction shows that the double attack procs were overpowered! Well I really meant I'm ignoring the additional proc issue now, not that I was ignoring it in that post. The proc issue was irrelevant to this part. The point was that even back then we were having exactly the same discussion: in the absence of double attack procs (whether that's because you're unaware of them or just unable to benefit from them any more), is the base DPS increase from the WIS branch really worth it? And my argument back then - before anyone was aware of the double attack procs - is exactly the same as your argument now that the procs are being removed: the WIS branch is very weak considering the AA cost and conditions attached to it. We knew at the outset that WIS was a very weak AA branch. That's why there was so much discussion about it at first. Everyone wanted parses and proof before they committed their points to it. Very few people were willing to jump in with both feet based on just the apparent base DPS increase as the cost vs. reward seemed very harsh. It was only after the proc issue arose that it suddenly became the FotM branch. Therefore, factor in the initial prediction and warnings that the procs would eventually be removed, and you have a bunch of people taking a very weak AA branch on the basis of a temporary DPS boost from what was essentially a bug. And now many of those people are acting surprised that it's so weak after the predicted fix actually gets implemented. Are some people still able to benefit from the WIS branch? Sure, if they're able to access a nice 1H (or 2H) weapon and if they're unconcerned enough about the utility potential of other branches to dump a significant number of AAs into it. We're back to the original discussions again. You really need to max out the critical WIS abilities to Rank 8 to see any real benefit over DW, which is very expensive. Anyway, blah blah, I'm rehashing the same points. You're absolutely right, I didn't expect people to drop WIS completely at the outset just because of my prediction and warning. But just as irritating as an "I told you so" post is a "Why is this necessary?!" post when it was reasoned out nearly 2 months ago! Edit: speeling and clarity Message Edited by overfloater on 04-24-2006 10:34 AM
Ok, what is all the fuss about. I think we have way to much complaining going on and not enough fun. Swashies rule and if you got to analyse every point of DPS to try and prove it then you aren't playing the class to have fun. I have a couple points here. The 1st is Swashies ruled before AA and KoS and the change to the wisdom line will not change that. The second, the AA's were not meant to make any one class have a better advantage than they did before. So if this AA was giving and advantage then of course they will nerf it. I haven't taken any AA's points in the wisdom line and I was still wanted in groups for my DPS. As a matter of fact it was commented several times this weekend when I came back from being AFK that my DPS was sorely missed. Heck, I am 57 and if I duo with a good tank, we can take down level 62 or 63 heroics with just my DPS and we can do it in about 45 seconds. So all this BS about the wisdom AA line and all the time you are all spending analyzing it you could instead be having fun playing the best class in this game.
I understand from whence your coming, but I take issue with your frequent assertions along the lines of "we always knew was a weak branch" and implying that from the outset everyone knew wisdom was krap and the only reason people were putting points was to take advantage of proc exploits. Many of the threads you referenced, have in depth analyses from Keldoth and others looking purely at the autoattack dps benefits and break even points, without taking into account the proc benefits, only viewing these as a nice but likely temporary bonus. When I chose the wisdom line, I did it based on those numbers not to take advantage of an exploit. I was initially upset at this announcement only because it appeared to be directed solely at rogues and not others who were also benefitting greatly from this mechanic. I also think you are dismissing the value of some of the other benefits of the line. Lunge reversal is a great addition to dps when soloing or tanking, as is the parry/riposte boost. The fact that it takes so many points to break even/exceed dw is therefore not that big a deal as these are by no means "wasted points." In addition, your implication is that there are other lines which are clearly so much better than wisdom. I for one am not too impressed with any of the other lines at least from the perspective of my playstyle (primarily small group and solo). The crit boost is nice but only results in a small boost to net dps. The positional proc from agility line from what I hear is not that great. If you don't generally experience aggro issues, int doesnt provide much of a bonus. And stamina only worthwhile if you plan to tank on a regular basis. I generally agree with and understand your point of view, but the potential implications that those who went wisdom line must have been either idiots or exploiters is definitely not fair and/or justified. Message Edited by dagoo7 on 04-24-2006 11:03 AM
I admit I've been a little disappointed by some of the posts in this thread, but I liked this one by Aieckelle. This swashie Forum has been unusual for its good humor and common sense. I hope more of us are willing to admit a change of opinion after we've slept on an issue. Good for you Aieckelle. As for your English, it's not bad. You are communicating fairly complex arguments, and successfully understanding other people's posts. I think it's awesome you're improving your English while playing EQ. lol ... I can see SoE wanting to use your idea as a marketing tool in non-English-speaking countries. And now my prediction ... After a momentary lapse, the swashie forum will return to its calm, reasonable, humorous norm. This is probably because the class attracts players who are after a well-balanced, but not overpowerful, class, who enjoy the game, and appreciate the good job SoE has done with the game. PS Thanks to Aeralik for a prompt intervention into the thread. Nice to know SoE staff are reading the swashie forum.
I posted this before when we were still hashing out templates but I think I will give it a go now and see how it pans out.. Here it is again Strength Branch - Level 1 (go to lvl 4)Blackguard's Strength Increases the Blackguard's strength. Passive Spell. Rank4: STR +16. Strength Branch - Level 2 (go to lvl 4)Torporous Strike A melee sword attack that reduces the target's chances of any critical stirke Strength Branch - Level 3 (go to lvl 4)Blackguard's Defense Increases the Blackguard's defense skill. Passive Spell. Rank4: Defense +12.7 Strength Branch - Level 4 (go to lvl 8) Blackguard's Luck Increases the Blackguard's chances at critical melee damage. Passive Spell. Rank4: Increases melee Crit Chance by 7.0% Total points so far 21 (including pick pocket) Agility Branch - Level 1 (go to lvl 4) Pirate's Agility Increases the Pirate's agility. Passive Spell. Rank4: AGI +20. Agility Branch - Level 2 (go to lvl 4) Walk the Plank A melee rapier attack that causes the target to turn around for a short duration. 30 sec recast. Rapier required in Primary. Rank4: 83-138 dmg, 2.0 sec duration. Rank5: 95-158 dmg, 2.4 sec. Rank8: 118-198, 3.0 sec. Agility Branch - Level 3 (go to lvl 4) Commandeer Increases in-combat movement speed. Passive Spell. Rank4: 5% Agility Branch - Level 4 (go to lvl 8) Avast Ye Permanent dmg proc buff. Passive Spell. Must be Flanking or Behind. Rank4: 8% Chance to cast Pirate Stab, 117-196 piercing dmg. It will leave 9 Points left over have not really looked in to what to put that maybe Swipe in the last line of str.
Sadaen, I wouldn't recommend the Agility line if you're not going for the final skill, Sailwind. Some folk posting about Agility talk about the Avast Ye dps proc as the reason to go with this line. When I've looked at logs the number of procs with Avast Ye at rank 4 (8%) have been disappointing. The number of procs is far less than 8% of my autoattacks, which indicates that, as to be expected from a proc, it only has a chance to happen every 3 seconds. That means a proc every 25-30 seconds for 117-196 damage (varies depending on your level). It helps , but weak compared to, for example, the 213-356 attack you get from Torporous Strike (Level 2, Strength Branch), or 249-416 from Lunge Reversal (Level 2/rank 4 Wisdom Branch), or 358-597 from Traumatic Swipe (level 5, Strength Branch) When not in extended fights with epics, you'll probably get Torporous Strike off more often than a proc of Avast Ye, because breaks between fights will let recast timers refresh. When soloing, Avast Ye will rarely go off (is a flank attack). In raids, you'll be using the strength attacks as much as possible for debuffing purposes, and the extra damage you also do will probably be more than from Avast Ye. Obviously, Commandeer is fantastic for PvP, but limited use for PvE. Walk the Plank is a great skill if you have a rapier. Sadly, in a Str/Agi combo, that would mean your couldn't use Torporous Strike. I've gone Agi 4/4/4/4/8 Str 4/4 so far. I love Sailwind, but use a sword (mainly because I can't find a decent rapier). However ... Now Wisdom is being nerfed and is no longer the Flavor of the Month (FotM) ... I'm tempted to try Wisdom.
Thought I would look into figures here Parsing from last 3 days plays give me 27% of my dmg from proc... interrupt, sword proc posion hurrican daring earing proc. If I have 72% double attack (i have maxed out wis) then by my calculations (which maybe well off) 41% of my total attacks are from a double attack, if I lose the chance to proc on those I will lose in all 11% of my total damage output. Harse? yes.. as bad as i thought? probably not what i really need to do is compare dps from wis to normal DW
8% procs over 3 seconds = 1.6 procs per minute 1.6 procs * 196 damage / 60 seconds = 5.22 damage per second. That is how much dps Avast Ye provides for straight auto attack before debuffs and crits. Traumatic swipe iirc is on a 60 second timer so worse case it does 358 damage a minute 358 / 60 = 5.966 damage per second before debuffs and crits Best case is 597 / 60 = 9.95 damage per second before debuffs and crits These are very small increases.
TSwipe is 30 seconds, but DPS or no DPS any raiding rogue should have it, unless you have many other rogues in your raidforce whom already have it.
To anyone who picked swashy for DPS scout... Sorry you picked the wrong class, go play assasin/ranger... We were meant to be tier 2 dps and we are doing too much damage right now. Thats the bottom line. You can disagree all you want, but that's the truth and stop all this whining and crying.
I'm not sure I'd go as far as to call it an exploit... By no means do I think that everyone who took the WIS branch did so because of the double attack procs. Like I said, there were some people who went straight for WIS before anyone knew about the procs, whether that was because they didn't like the other branches, because they valued the extra DPS over extra utility, or simply because they liked the one-handed style. Originally, though, there were very few people who were willing to jump onto the WIS branch without seeing parses and knowing that double attacks would proc. But... that doesn't change the fact that WIS quite obviously became FotM after the double proc factor was discovered. The sheer presence (and length) of this thread and the content of many of the posts shows you that many people did choose WIS solely because of the extra DPS from procs. It was apparent to some of us before parses were available, and it was definitely obvious to everyone after parses that the extra procs were both unintentional and overpowered. So, while I don't think everyone was just out to "exploit", don't fool yourself into thinking that everybody who chose WIS was innocently oblivious to the proc issue. In fact, I could point out posts from several different people back when it was first discovered saying that double attack procs were the major reason for taking the WIS branch. I'm pretty sure no other single rogue AA ability could generate a 4-page "nerf!" complaint thread this fast, which speaks volumes! I spent a long time during KoS beta and right after it went live comparing 1H and DW damage ratings, AA point expenditure, break-even points and other tradeoffs for the WIS branch on the forums without referencing parses directly (and hence no proc benefits). There was a lot of discussion about it. Some people, like yourself, went for WIS in the face of those arguments as you believed the tradeoff worthwhile for your playstyle. It is possible to make the WIS line work for you in the absence of double attack procs, it just depends how many points you're willing to commit to it. Personally I still think it offers very limited cost vs. reward in light of the other potential utility you sacrifice -- if you want to make full use of the WIS line (esp. Coule), you'll severely hamper any other branches you wish to pursue. Most AA skills have relatively marginal effects, so the other WIS abilities certainly shouldn't be dismissed. That said, increased DPS was generally the most appealing factor to most people, and it's really increased sustained DPS, not burst. The majority of people discussing WIS originally as a nice sustained DPS boost were doing so from a raiding perspective, as this is where the boost really pays off. Yet in a raid scenario, LR and the parry/riposte play basically no part. In that light they are only "filler" material. This was the issue I had with WIS initially: While each skill individually matched the one-handed "fencer" concept, the skills didn't gel together well for a single (or even a broad) practical function. The other branches aren't "better", per se. Everyone's playstyle demands different things and all the effects are marginal in the grand scheme of things. But skills in the other branches generally gel together as a functional unit far better than WIS, and/or offer much greater flexibility in terms of utility. STR and AGI offer a far greater variety of utility, whereas STA and INT gel much better as functional units. WIS is kind of a hodge-podge mix of different playstyles. As a branch, it has little/no utility -- the parry/riposte is pretty much the only utility, and it's only a very minor increase if you're actually looking at it as a tanking/soloing benefit. Ditto for LR. To the point that I'd say the main focus of WIS is generating extra DPS, whether through double attacks, improved hit rate or marginally increased ripostes. The weird thing is that its DPS generation is spread across playstyles: double attack is significantly less effective while soloing, yet this is when LR and the ripostes are most useful. On the flipside, double attack comes into its own when raiding, but in this scenario LR and ripostes are utterly redundant. In addition, you cannot afford to take WIS.2 and WIS.3 without taking WIS.4 to at least Rank 4 (or was it Rank 5?) because the loss of offhand would make the LR and riposte DPS redundant (unless you regard LR and the parry/riposte as such significant defensive utility that you'd give up the offhand for them anyway... but I don't think many people would do that!). Unless you're tanking, you're never really going to see maximum benefit from all the WIS skills at once... but if you're tanking, you'd do better to pick the STA line anyway. You could argue that there's useful utility in being able to use the WIS abilities in different scenarios, but I think you could probably find more effective flexibility in combinations of other branches -- and in those branches, you don't have to "commit" to investing a minimum of 16 points to break even on DPS, you have more freedom in spreading points around. See where my argument is coming from? Not sure if I'm making any sense... I'm sure some people can and will make the WIS branch work well for them but, as far as design and game mechanics are concerned, I still think it's a very "awkward" branch. If you already took the branch primarily for the double attack and Coule, then the first two WIS skills are certainly a nice bonus, not just a waste of space. But as far as starting from scratch and planning for a specific playstyle goes, WIS just won't fit for most people. Certainly not as many as those who have taken WIS over the past two months. You'll be able to tell those people whom the WIS branch doesn't really suit, because they're the ones who are busy figuring out how to respec now! Sorry, another long post. Not trying to pin the "FotM fanboi" tag on everyone, just trying to show how I think the double attack procs and huge DPS were the only thing that really attracted a lot of people. Message Edited by overfloater on 04-24-2006 02:09 PM
Here is the problem with the bug fix proposed here. As so many of the wise high post count people are touting, the AA trees are meant for flavor and to differentiate and provide a bonus to abilities. Look at the other trees, none of them take away any abilities with the exception being the STA line and requiring defensive stance. Even then though you are using a swasy ability. So in all the trees every AA point spent really benefits the player. The strength line has increased crit chance. It may be small but every bit makes things better. It also gives STR as a bonus stat for the first 4 points, very helpful to those that may not raid 100% of the time and maxing stats may not happen. Oh, and on the way to the very nice top tier ability you also get a damage CA and a boost to defense. Hmm...all positive. The int line gives extra abilities. More stealth and deaggro stuff. Not a contributor to damage, but again, every point helps. Agi line. This line again gives abilities for each point. Walk the plank can be great for turning a mob away from healers for a few seconds and the extra damage proc is extra damage no mater how minimal. Also, the top ability is really nice for getting all our debuffs in faster. Stamina provides great defensive bonuses, and for those that pick this style of play with their swashy it is awesome. In fact, it is arguable the best (design wise) line out there because it truly specializes the character. You loose some damage, but if you are hitting the DPS cap, like some casual players or duos may not, you gain back the offhand weapon damage AND get the defensive bonuses. This line is awesome. The only problem is that end game requires players to not only debuff but to maximize damge and this does not fit. Again, a superior line with a playstyle that doesn't fit the game very well. Now the wisdom line. The stat is arguably of little use. Lunge reversal is nice, but really is it much better than the 2nd tier str skill? It does more damage but it doesn't have any associated debuffs. The next tier gives increased defensive bonuses. Who cares? I had to give up a shield to take the tier, it better. So I get the shield bonuses back but I don't get any type of defensive procs or stats on said shield. My guess is that a fabled round shield is better in the long run if you want defense. Not only that, but the investment to make this skill worthwile is high in point cost. Now we get to the double attacks. Yes, this is very nice, but as as I said above, you are a weaker swashy until you put in a high number of points. Even after all those points, where are you? You don't get the stats from the other trees. You don't get the stats from a secondary item. You don't get the proc from a secondary item. You don't get the offhand damage and you don't get defense from a shield. So, in the end you get slightly better auto attack damage and better defenses than if you were dual wielding. The top tier ability does not seem to be nearly as nice as any of the others. So, they broke this AA. It requires huge point costs just to get back to a dual wielder without any AA spent let alone see gains that you see from every single point in any other branch. Fact is, I want to carry 1 weapon because I think it looks cool. Although a weapon and a parrying dagger that you don't attack with would be fun as well, but that isn't an option. As others have said above this tree is no longer comparable to any of the others. It requires huge AA investment to see any gain at all, and it is doubtful if those gains actually compare to the other lines now. Was it too much before? Yes, I agree here. It was very obvious that it needed to be fixed. Taking the simple route of removing procs though goes the other way. The goal was to create a 1hd swashy that would be as viable as the other branches. The wis branch now only affects damge output and taking. It has no form of debuff, hate management, or general utility. A damge line should be the best for damage. If they don't want this line to be a damge line then give useful abilities. Maybe a distraction ability that can cause a target to have % chance to fail a spell/CA. I don't know. It needs something. Well, that is probably enough. It seems that this thread turned into those complaining and those bahing the complainers. There has been little comparison between trees and there has been no suggestions to fix it properly instead of the quick fix that will **** the line. Personally, I am still going to spec Wis once I get enough AA to make it break even (see the tree is broken) simply because I am not in a raiding guild and I am a more casual player and that DPS if of less concern to me than the fun I have playing the game with my guildies. suggesttions: Maybe it should start out with +50% DA and then +x% every point after that. Maybe have it max out at +100% DW. Then it would be like carrying 2 1 handers. Yes, this is more damage but it is less than dual proccing poisons and as I said above it is melee combat tree since it has no specail circumstances skills in it. Give some actually non-combat benefits/skills if this is not meant to be a damage tree. Actually fix the DA properly. The let DA have a chance to proc weapon procs and non-damage procs each swing and put poisons and other damage procs on first swing only.
Wow... did my first raid where I wasnt really under level ocmpared to mobs and i had unencumerance at 5/8 .... ok now i know why we got nerfed. I went through half a stack of poison and half a stack of debuff poison. 60% of my dps was from poison procs. And leaving autoattack and doing NO combat arts dropped my dps per fight by less than 20%. Probably good this nerf hits before i max the line out and get used to that sort of dps BTW the wurmslayer we can use..... im guessing by no miracle it classifies as having off hand free in 2h form?
In no way do I feel WIS line is 'broken' now. For the soloer/light tanker, its the best choice by far IMO. For the raider/pure DPS'er, the autoattack increase is just as helpful as the other T4 abilities in STR, AGI and INT lines - nothing huge, just a slight nudge in the right direction. I dont buy the whole 'costs too much AA points to pay off', in all the DPS increasing lines you need to spend 4-4-4-8 points to get the full benefit - nothing unique for the WIS line. Its true that until you have gotten your first 21 points WIS line might carry a penalty - but I dont see the point in discussing how to best spend 10 or 15 points, its only the final build (50 points, or at least 25) thats intresting. And I also dont see why losing your offhand proc is given so much relevance - whats the highest % of your total DPS your offhand proc ever has parsed? 5% chance to proc means you are projected to proc the effect ONCE A MINUTE (in pure autoattack mode). Even more rarely, if you are using CA's, or not fighting continually. Same thing goes for lost stats in offhand slot... how does 15-20 STR and power for one more CA even remotely compare to 15-20% higher autoattack? I was btw one of the people who respecced to WIS line after the 'double proc' feature became known. I saw the FoTM thing and I jumped on it - but I did so well knowing it was likely not going to last. Hence this change doesnt bother me one bit.
My comment of broken doesn't mean now, it soft of means always. It is the only line where it gets worse before it gets better. As a more casual player it will personally take me much longer to reach enough AA to make it worth it and Wis is the only line that basically requires you to save points, not use the abilitites in it, or respec into it if you don't want to get worse before it gets better. This makes it seem like the line is broken. If they fixed this and made every point a small improvement like every other line out there, then people would not complain.
Am I the only swashy that feels that the hurricane nerf in LU13 and the daring nerf in LU16 are completely unjustified?! imho hurricane SHOULD proc 70 - 80 % of the time and daring SHOULD proc on every melee hit The wis AA line let us reclaim these two skills from an oppressive "teir" system, while this nerf is just opening old wounds. With down scaling, yes, the teir system is oppressive as policed by preds (for scouts) and enforced by SoE placating their demands to always be on top no matter the situation. If the damage of daring is raised by 70 % and hurricane set to a 75 % proc rate, the decreases to our other abilities would be bearable since this is how these two should have been since the start of DoF.
When I looked at the Test Update notes, it looked like this: *** Achievements *** - Cleric: Divine Recovery's casting speed benefit has been changed to 50% instead of 100%. - Enchanter: Daydream no longer causes hate when cast and not resisted. - Enchanter: Sever Empathy no longer causes hate when cast and not resisted. - A successful double attack no longer provides an additional chance to trigger a proc. I don't see it only targeting Rogues...
