im a lvl 65 berseker and i have tanks some t7 and t6 i wouldnt say HP is my main deal mostly i got for AGI for adavondice and MIT there is very nice t7 none relic gear to help and holding agro isnt to hard with a dirge or some class with a hate gain buff doomrage gear is quite nice not to hard to get eather but im still to low for any relic and the doomrage set
i'll trade ya my sta buff for the HP regen, ToS for open wounds or gibe... raid buffed i'm beyond sta capped, and ToS i might use once a raid... i'll even toss in the group def buff for something usefull... if you really think the grass is greener roll a guard alt and lvl it to 30, you'll be missing ToS and reinforcment still but you'll see the class for what it basicly is...
I think what wabit, is saying is that, raid tanking wise, we have and use 99% of our ca's and abilitys, probably minus intercede/juggernaut thats all we don't use when we raid tank. And it's true, regen caps pretty high(i dont' know the number) while we regen 85(150, depending on proc) it in effect nullifies the +sta (everyone is sta capped raiding just about, or with defiler, still capped if mostly relic) and the only real advantage is the +hp (which is about 600-700? good amount too if it's modded by 2.5/2.5) So it's a pretty even hp comparison imo. (plus whose never used the regen for soloing? for soloing it's unquestionably more worthwhile than raw hp, but then again thats no raiding) Also they get all these spheres or and protecting or whatever, i doubt they really want to or need to shield thier group from harm in a raid, and they have some wierd troub like group deaggro? i doubt a mt group barely generates that much aggro anyway.(aside from the usually pre-ward thats the only aggro they might get, but who pre-wards?) Really about the only thing that most zerkers should be envious of(i'm sure guards are on the flip side envious of open wounds/rampage) is stoneskin, tos.
Jnewby Vision of Madness is not as cool as you think it is when it comes to t7 raiding, I am trying to remember if got saved by it on any t7 raid but i cant recall any occassion that it saved me in a t7 raid. Maybe it did a couple of times that i havent noticed, but thats all about it. but yeah its great for solo, for example I wouldnt make it solo all the way to the sanctum forge without it but we talking raid uses of abilities here Also as zerkers doing 3 times dps from a guard is kinda situational, we can do great dps on multi targets once every 3 minutes. though I am pretty sure that a guard having crit from strenght line and double attacks from buckler line can do nearly as much dps on a single target as a zerker, engulfing rage wont break a difference, you can cap dps and haste from other classes buffs ( coercer,dirge,inquistor fury. illussionist) Yeah I know most guards dont go for buckler line its usually mitgation from wis and "tsunami " from agility , but the choice for a guard to do pretty decent dps is there.
From playing a healer I'll tell ya zerks hold aggro a lot better then guardians. As a tradeoff zerks have less hps. We played with a zerk MT for a while and they make good raidtanks. The only thing is zerks need a bit more parry to cap out so ask your dirge to spec to add parry as an AA to cap it. Then all you're down is about 600 hps or so but you gain a lot better aggro.
There's no difference in the amount of parry, between a zerk and guard. We both cap at 420. Guard's do have a group buff that gives defense (NOT parry)...but if you've done some claymore stuff and have doomrage/relic, then defense is easy to cap out...zerk or guard, no difference here either. Tis the reason I went down Intelligence line - for the parry. But since this is also capped out during the raids, I'll probably respec. If a guard has more parry, then it's because of his AA choice or the gear they are wearing...not simply because they are a guard.
That's not true. Zerks get Guarding Vigilance that adds agility so have naturally higher agilities and need to be buffed less to hit cap. Guards get Unyielding Vigilance that adds parry instead of agility. With a guardian a dirge with only an a3 parry buff will go over the 420 cap. With a Zerk you'll hit around 412 or so parry with a dirge depending on gear that adds parry.
Ok, but when you are MT for a raid, you should NOT be casting those abilities. Another fighter should have thier avoidance on you. And if you cast yours, it cancels theirs out. You want the extra chance of avoiding a hit from the other fighter, not the added agility (or parry if you're a guardian) you gain from casting yours on someone else. I guess if you don't have a fighter in your MT group, then you should use the ability. But if at all possible, get one. Looking through the parses from when I have a paladin in my group (which also gives mitigation, etc), with their avoidace on me, I see myself avoiding alot of hits, using THEIR avoidance...and it checks this before it even has a chance to check my own avoidance. As I said, the advantage of having their buff on you (47% chance to use their avoidance - even if their avoidance was only 50%) and having it check this before it even checks your own, is much better than raising your ow avoidance by a couple percent. Even if the other fighter was in offensive satnce and their avoidance was only 25%...it would still be better. Also, zerk's is called Guarded Vehemence Message Edited by FightGame on 07-05-2006 02:50 PM
I agree guards coudl do more then they do.. but they dont cause that is not waht they are after usually.. however my opint was some poster asked to have tos and a life buff.. which is ludicrios as raelly this is our only defensive advantage anymore.. and even so zerkers have other buffs we do not.. maybe they are worse but I was stating taht the dps is a big advantage especially casue of holding aggro..
Yes they do, and unless i'm short on a particular resist and need that boosted, which is rare, i'll put a pally or SK in the MT group with me for the mit and avoidance increases. You can even put a guard in the MT group with you for the group HP buff, but the mit is more useful. Being able to regen 100+ points per tick is very useful on a long fight and adds up to a lot of HP restored. The only thing it doesn't help with is getting killed at the start of a fight while your healers build up speed. This is where guards have a real advantage - more HP combined with tower of stone makes them much less likely to pull and fall over dead before the healers have got you stabalised, which happens to me occationally. I was considdering the "parries 100% of incoming attacks" final AA ability as a kind of "poor mans tower of stone" until i saw it was a 10 minute recase, and anyway, i'd rather have the mit boost and 10% hate gain from the wiz and str lines. I actually made a long guard v zerker comparison post for my guild on our forums, including screenshots of two same-level, same-gear characters when the beta-buffing for the new adventure pack was available. I'd link it or copy it here, but our server blew up a couple of weeks a go so i can't get to it :smileysad: To cut a long story short the differences were this: Mit and avoidance were pretty similar Guards have more HP, zerkers have HP regen Guards have a few other tanky tricks - tower of stone & hate reduction for a group member Zerkers have a few dps tricks - rampage and open woulds particularly (no, not juggernaught - not unless it's a grey epic!!)
I wouldn't say Guards or Zerks have it all wrapped up on either side. Guards also get Reinforcment which owns rescue and when properly used can really be amazing and bring peeled mobs back where they are supposed to be. Their 50% proc rate on their taunting stance is great for long long fights where the power is running low but the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] caster pets are still wailing away. Tower of Stone is amazing against nasty crit heavy encounters like the Labs seem to have in such profuse number. Moderate is a very nice ability to have too. Zerks churn out damage in such amounts that keeping aggro is fairly easy if folks don't go crazy and you stay on the same mob the MA is on. Vision of Madness is of debatable use in raids, I've really only had it save the day once that I've noticed. Usually the encounters are multiple mobs and the hits are coming in too fast for the hp to come back up before you get crushed. But when it comes to tanking tools Insolent Gibe is the absolute best thing going. I really showed our Guards the greatness of being a Zerk back when Moonchild spawned her ghosts and when Padras Predd busts out his Abominations. I click one button and they come to me like gnolls to a cookout. We do the job fine. Zerks and Guards are both great tanks and either can tank any raid (that I know of) if geared properly. Really it comes down to the individual playing the toon. Don't it always? PS I agree our HP regen is lame and Juggernaught is just stupid. I'd trade both hp regens and Juggernaught for a single sta or hp buff. Oh well.
comparing reinforcement vs insolent gibe. As a berserker i'd put my bank on gibe. one reason is that i never loose aggro, and yea my raid dps can go crazy, and the times i do loose aggro to like a wiz(you can see from implied target) he has like 6% mana left, so he really wanted to burn down the trash, heh. But i don't loose aggro, so imo having 2 rescues is redundant, it'd be nice i guess on memblur mobs, which is when i use rescue. But i'd choose gibe over a guards reinforcement, and thier other aoe taunt. Thats how much i value gibe, if i want a group of trash to stick on me, i gibe, i want a named on me? i gibe, i have no power? i gibe. However if i were a guard, i'd think i would choose reinforcement however, i've seen guards have the need to have snap back aggro. Yea it's been debated, countless times, guards 50% proc vs zerks 20% proc. Does it seem fair, one flips a coin, while the other has to roll a 5sided die? Course ours does dmg also, so overall i'd want to keep the 20% zerk one still.(i don't know if the taunt portion will be resisted, the dmg will go through or can be resisted or whatever, but hey on duels, it's cool heh)
Insolent Gibe is great for raids but in most cases useless when I am in groups cause the spell has a long range and I don´t want to have adds...(that´s the job of the mage ;D) Destruction and Open Wounds are great to hold the aggro when fighting against an encounter with multiple targets. So Zerker and Guard, both have advantages and disadvantages when they try to hold the aggro. But guards have too many advantages with ther defense! We have a stupid in combat hp regen and that´s it! Of course we have the same def. stance and miti buffs but nothing else...
In general: The Guardian Can draw upon a bigger pool of defensive spells: Their Tuants proc/deal Actual Hate ---- Berserkers proc/Deal damage. Reduced Hate + Damage (according to SoE 1 damage = +1 Threat increase... sorry dont have link) They have Bigger defensive Buffs.. They can call on thier versions of Mayhem, Wall of Ferocity and Subdued Rage + Def group buffs and crush/slash/piericing grp buffs. And their HP buff. >> Somthing that sums this up, is the differences between Taunting Defence and the Guardian Equivalent and Violent Pledge and the Guardian Equivalent. Compare those spells and ull see what i mean<<< The Berserker: The berserker has a greater ability to 'snatch agro' but may struggle to maintain it over time. As the damage that is supposed to gain us Hate is very unreliable form of generating it. The Berserker has bigger offensive buffs (berserk procs) And has Health regen instead of HP proc. And an uber STR buff. Berserkers also have a slight edge of developing group agro, And are first choice i think for any situation where group agro is a must. Berserkers Can dps to a far greater extent then a guardian.... ----- BUT ----- Guardians have a higher damage attack CA (Retaliation strike... almost same if not same as Demolish and i think the highest is obliterate) then any berserker!! Although granted it is crushing so mobs can mitigate it more then the Melee we do. They also have Obliterate which says in spell description almost never can be parried and drops mobs parry by 60!!! Which means that more melee hits land.. and i have definatly noted the difference after its been used (at master 1). Particularly with Endbringers jus before the Corsolander in Labs - Also good mob to use your buckler line on (they parry like mad). If they want more DPS they are gunna have to drop some of their defensive buffs.. which basically means they will become a berserker anyway. Basically in Raids: I dont think a berserker can match a guardians ability to tank a named mob. That does mean we cant tank it, it just means that it would be easier for a Guardian to tank... so most raid leaders will use a guardian, as there is a slightly less chance for a wipe and leaders job is to minismise the number of wipes (among other things) -which is vital for moral. Im pritty sure a berserker can tank any mob in this game as well as a guardian. In actual fact... A guardian should be able to tank a group with just his normal group taunt if he knows what to do. And with a good raid group, the agro issue pritty much disappears... so it is down to single self buffs. And guardians can outdo defensively berserkers. (NB: not talking about specifics here, if its a mob that does alotta cold damage = Berserker, Heat = Guardian, and only talking about single mobs) Its 230am here so probably loads of mistakes.... lol will sort out later. Vlad
Guardians don't have better defense buffs (same mitigation for ther def stance, Wall of Ferocity, their Mayhem has not noticable more mitigation because the values for slashing, piercing are higher, crushing lower), they buff def, but who cares if everyone caps def solo? As a zerker who just killed Tarinax as MT with a buckler I can say: there is no raid target a zerker couldn't tank :smileyvery-happy: Man, what a great fight, only 19 people or so, Tarinax at 3 %, all rezzer (healer, dirge, pala, necro) oom and the inqui died, I died at 2 % or so and he died without a living tank and half the raid dead :smileytongue: But why is there no buckler reward for claymore :smileysad:
Something i wanna add is that a guardian indeed has an edge with tos for dealing with the spikedps at the start of the fight. BUT one thing you guys often forget is that with groups a guardian really can struggle to glue that encounter onto him from the start of the fight. When i'm MTing the healers prebuff, preward, pre-whatever they wanna pre- ... :smileytongue: When we let the guardian tank we often see that the encounter breaks and some of the mobs go off to splat our healers which means with a guardian pulling a big encounter the healers will be more careful with pre-whatever and will need more time to get into their healingpace. I often saw a guardian going down because of this (espescially in lyceum) while a zerk breezes trough these encounters... One thing makes us a very good choice for MTing raids and that is aggro. I as a zerker don't really need extra hategeneration or transfer on me(i prefer to have it but if a very defensive MT-groupsetup is needed i can do without). That's completely different for any other tank out there... Message Edited by zormik on 07-17-2006 11:30 AM
