Just for the record, and speaking as the other MT mentioned by Zervun, we are on a PVP server (Qeynos side Venekor), meaning we have no FP classes. That means we don't have assassins, and we don't have brigands (dispatch, please keep in mind we do NOT have dispatch.) Our top parsers doing 900-1400 per pull typically are 1 or 2 zerkers, a warlock, a swashbuckler, and 1 or 2 rangers. No, we don't have full raid gear yet, but at least some of us are utilizing PVP rewards. That said... Our raid maximizing it's DPS is a significantly different beast than your typical raid. We will never achieve the kind of DPS numbers that fully optimized PVE ones achieve because we simply can't have perma-dispatch from jestered brigands, no assassins, no inquisitors/their buffs, no coercers/their buffs, we can't even field defilers in MT group, etc etc. I'm one of our top DPS parsers, and I'm at all but 10 masters in the game (most of which aren't DPS oriented, IE Blood Craze, Vision of Madness, etc) and using a 80 DR 1h PVP reward (Dazzling Blade, which kicks the crap out of everything except the planar axe almost) and I can barely break 1400 on group mobs, 800-1100 on single mobs, take 200 or so off if I am tanking. That's a pretty healthy DPS compared to what I read other raid zerkers here saying they can achieve, especially when many of them probably have the benefits of jester capped dispatching brigands. With a dirge multiplying our hate, and our parsing in the top 4 DPS in our raid, our hate is solid. It isn't a fault of our raid force's dps (though it could improve), it is a result of the limitations we experience on a PVP server. That, and perhaps age of the server. When the first 70s were appearing on PVE servers, PVP servers were getting their very first 30s and 40s, maybe maybe a 50 or two. Remember, day 1 of KOS for level 60s on PVE was day 1 level 1 of PVP servers.
so you have more dps more aggro control and a free death and u are still complaining about 590 hps that guards get more? weak.. go betray to a gurad.. then u can complain how little yer dps is...
Zerkers = more dps Guardians = More hp Its the way it has always been and always will be, zerkers IMO hold aggro better than guardians due the sheer dps we kick out between our taunts. Guardians hower (ogres with hp class trait especially) are always gonna have more HP and compensate for less dps with hate procs and better defnsive buffs. Certain tanks are better for certain mobs... fact... if they werent then the game would be very dull. One thing that would help zerkers catch up a bit defensively would be if our regen buffs were converted to defensive buffs of some sort... but thats not happening anytime soon. People wil lalways find something to complain about.. i bet the guard forums are littered with "give us DPS" posts. Bottom line is both tanks do the same job in slightly different ways. Oh and MITIGATION > EVERYTHING! =)
I have tank everything in the game from contested to instanced without the slightest problem (still need to kill chel drak guild reluctant to go there with so many new recruit). i d add that guild almost booted our guardian after having me as a MT he is still our guild's mascot . As long as you are a skilled zerker and use your brain you can tank everything. those punit 600 HP difference wont do anything. There are awsome berserker awsome guardian awsome SK and awsome palladin that can tank everything in the game (not sure about C'D and matron thoug). We have an SK tank tarinax for the fun. So there is no difference between guard and zerker.
hmm, when mobs begin to con orange, i believe that guardians may have a slight edge. As they have more outrigh taunting ability. although they can get resisted, personaly i have found that they get resisted less then we miss. And our dps will be blunted against an orange con mob. This is what i talk about primarley. I never said that zerkers couldnt tank a mob that a guardians ( i think its the 3rd time i have said it in this thread). Basically, I Believe dps is a fickle thing to get hate on. Some mobs it will do more damage some it will do less, with orange con mob you will struggle more the a guardian imo. To a certain extent buffing melee skills can avoid this... but there is much discussion as to how useful this actually is. Where as a taunt is a taunt. it cannot get mitigated against... if it lands it WILL give you the threat it says.. or within the range (which usually isnt more then 3-400 difference). And it will also regen ALOT faster if its resisted. Where as CA have a larger min max diff + get mitigated somewhat by the mob. Its a minor difference, but somthing that personally i believe is good to understand. Vladnor The Berserk 70 Berserker Unity Splitpaw Message Edited by Thor Of Halla on 09-20-2006 06:04 PM
Tanking an orange mob is zero difference to a yellow, their taunts and combat arts gets resisted just liker ours.
Your melee skills, combined with lots of people debuffing the mob in every way (as they should do anyway), eliminates this possibility, if there is one.
The difference in fighting orange mobs lies in the guardian's hate proc that fires off 50% of the time he gets hit... He will get hit a lot by orange mobs --> a lot more extra hate. We as zerkers have a proc that only fires off 20% of the time...
Are you sure about that bremer? According to SoE and my general raid experience there is a big difference to tanking a yellow to an orange mob. What matters is how well that orange mob is debuffed... My point was that they have a few more taunts then us, and that 50% proc, now afiak when a CA gets resisted it doesnt regen as quick as a taunt when it gets resisted. So While we waiting longer for our CA to regen after our taunts have been used, they are happly cycling thier taunts and if they resist they dont have to wait long for it to come available. + High damage hits/debuff that 'rarely miss' i.e. Precise Strike + Obliterate. That dec parry by 60 for 10 secs. They also have an AE taunt like the initial threat hit of Insolent Gibe... And imo the great thing about Insolent Gibe is that AoE ability... gives you the chance to quickly trap multipul adds/ loose mobs. However, if the AoE taunt fails to pull agro the 34sec 50% chance to proc threat after that is not much use at all unless u have a mob hitting you to cause it to proc. And guardians have that anyway in the form of their 50% proc version over ours. VoM and hp regen are not as useful as Sta/HP buffs. I also think ppl should be careful when they say 'guardians are the same as zerkers or 95% the same etc' Imo whilst, they are similar in many ways they are also different in many other. You CANNOT play a guardian as you play a zerker. Its the way SoE want it... Zerkers + Guardians compete for the same raid niche of Raid MT, but SoE have given us different tools to compete for that niche otherwise wed jus be copy and paste jobs. And i love zerkers jus they way are Dont have, and would'nt, roll another char at all . The only thing i dont get is Juggernaut... Unless SoE see that RL would choose guardians so they gave use somthing to use while we not MT... ??? lol And id say, obvious though it might be, on the earlier priorities of tanking; THREAT > Miti > HP > Avoidance ... etc Zerkers FTW Vladnor The Berserk 70 Berserker Unity Splitpaw
lucaxx from aftermath on butcherblock tanked cheldrak and the matron. so basically the classes are pretty even tanking wise.
Ya, that's the belief of the mass majority. Always will be a few people that continually try to analyze the tiny differences...like they matter at all.
See your point FightGame but personally, Id like to know the exact differences between my class and its lead competitor, i believe it can help to make me a better tank through better understanding of what zerkers can do ... and a bigger geek Vladnor The Berserk 70 Berserker Unity Splitpaw Message Edited by Thor Of Halla on 09-23-2006 09:10 AM
main difference really is tower of stone, if a guard is carrying a box of legendary shields, they got you beat. I don't believe anything else really matters at all in terms of tanking or taking hits. For this i always give the guard a 1% edge in mt tanking. however a guard has 0% use in raid dps, if a guard isn't mt that guard shouldn't be in raid, if you have any other class sitting outside a raid, they will be better than a guard who isn't mt on a raid, thats a given. 5dirges? heck that'll be a boy band right there.
Guardians dont have any edge on tanking... they just have a way of filling that tanking niche. They are taunt/defensive and we are taunt/offensive. Some may say they have it easier, and im sure others wont. But there is nothing a zerker cant tank that a guardian can. lol what a boy band that would be Vladnor The Berserk
