Hey Zorm A simple Group Setup + MA setup will solve that problem with ease m8 Our guardian doesnt loose agro on groups. And killed Tari myself with Buckler/Tower shield combo was OT with a Guardian. Im not saying zerkers cant. Just that guardians are a safer bet. Btw Bremer VoM and HP regen are useless in raids, and lets face it Tier 7 is about raiding. Its only useful if you get an instant heal when u die to bulster your HP, in which case VoM serves to Bulster the heals. It is good when u eat a massive AoE DoT And it appears to be bugged aswell, some times it only Procs for 147hp. Think that happens when you die ur max hp can go to some silly figures and since VoM (at Master 1) heal u for 50% hp over 5 seconds (10% a second)... With a hp of 10/11k on a raid 10% of 10/11k is definatly not 147hp Vladnor 70 Berserker Unity Splitpaw Message Edited by Thor Of Halla on 08-24-2006 07:06 AM Message Edited by Thor Of Halla on 08-24-2006 07:10 AM
Really there isn't much of a difference Stamina is Capped easily Guardians get more hp and ToS thats it really - and most Guards that I know of now use a buckler anyway and seldomly swap to ToS Regen and VoM helps to offset the less hp (which is minor anyway) Reinforcment or Insolent Gibe is just personal preference Heat or Cold in D stance - Personally I think heat is easier to max, but I have both maxed anyway in a group A bit more mana efficient for a Zerker to hold aggro imo, but again thats questionable --- Really doesn't matter either tank can raidtank and the bonus's of one or the other matter about 0 in a raid - it's who is equiped better to hit the mit cap and can hold aggro.
the reason why gaurds get the better stuff for tanking like buffs and such is because thats there main class feature. They suck for dps even more than a templer lol. So the trade off of a zerk for his dps is to give up some of those tanking abilities than make guards better than them in raiding situations. Even though I like tanking with my zerk id never betray him for a guard. I just like the dps tanking combo to much to go cold turky on pure tanking.
As a tank that is beginning to raid T7 content (almost cleared labs, we'll get you Vyemm), the only ability I think is a real advantage over Berserkers is Tower of Stone. On nasty pulls, stone-skinning 20K hits is huge. On the other hand, Berserker AoE dps just rocks, and I can't match initial damage that allows a Berserker to lock-down a multi-mob encounter. Honestly though, they really are interchangeable. Both Guardians and Berserkers are fantastic raid tanks, and Berserkers have it great in that they can be MA and join the melee dps group. Message Edited by Tyrion on 08-24-2006 09:33 PM
Personlly I think Zerkers can hold the best aggro against multi-mob encounters. Does this relegate them to tanking the trash along the way and Guards tanking the nameds? Maybe, some times it seems that way.
The only thing that is disturbing me is the fact that their taunt-stance has a 50% chance to proc So i mean, the sta buff is really crappy because you can max sta very easily out, same as defensive skill. The HPreg is even to the HPbuff (grp buffs). And it's not more difficult to tank a named raid mob with a zerker than with a guardian, the only different thing may be the 52 special. pretty cool their reinforcement (nicest thing to off tank, instantly aggro with some hits), but don't forget insolent gibe
Tower of Stone isn't the only major defensive advantage. Guardian Sphere is just as much an "I win" button for absorbing damage, especially when the Guardian is the only one getting hit with 25% chance to proc stone skin on every hit for the next 36 secs :smileysurprised: And guardians can hold agro on multiple groups just fine. Of course not with the finesse of Insolent Gibe though when it's up That's one skill I'd definately like to add to my arsenal.
Another thing i want to add is that VOM has saved me plenty of times on raids already, i think it saves me on average once or twice (meaning i finished the encounter alive because of VOM) each raid which is imo a huge difference. That's 2 wipes less... VOM for me is a little TOS. Probably not as effective but very useful too imo... Now there will always be comparisons between guards and zerks but i think we both are pretty well balanced and it's proven by the fact we both are the most chosen class for MTing raids. Guards = the little defensive edge can be useful for the hardest fights you can imagine ingame. On top of that i will always give my MT spot to a guardian on the corcolander by example. Their hateproc is ideal for this. Same for orange epics. Zerkers = holding aggro is our bussiness and is where we shine at and where we have an edge. MT-groups can be more flexible because of this. There is less need for hatetransfer/buffs... On top of that we are nice to have even when we're not MT-ing. Our dps can just be erm quite impressive :smileyvery-happy:
"The only thing that is disturbing me is the fact that their taunt-stance has a 50% chance to proc" It does only proc when you get hit though, this makes it better the tougher the mob. funny but against low green groups it can be a bit useless pretty sure bezerkers get the other way round as yours depends on you having to hit the mob to proc, the higher the mob the less likely you hit , less likely it procs. I really do not think there is much in it either way, I think guardians are a fraction better single target , bezerkers are much better on multiples.
we have to be hit to proc taunting defense or whatever, we're not monks. stoneskin is unmitigated damage, so when you see it absorbs 15k, it's all unmitigated, it's like when a mage says, wow, i got swiped for 20k lol. So really stoneskin just save's a hit, basically would be the same as intercede.
If I undertand Guardian's Sphere correctly only damage dealt to goup members can be absorbed, not damage to the Guardian. And I doubt the spell is funny if you transfer the damage from a cloth wearer to you, can be deadly. Personally, I prefer Destruction over this spell :smileytongue: Their taunt proc may proc more often, but ours procs for the same amount of hate plus additional damage, so more or less they are equal.
It absorbs damage to group members, 1 hit each, and has a 25% chance of procing stone skin for the next 36 seconds. If I'm in any trouble and I know that nobody else is being hit then I'll use it to let the healers get on top again.
Okay VoM is useless... because after you die the mob CANNOT hit you with for more then 10% hp at any one second. at 11k hp 10% is around the 800 mark (my maths skills where never that good). Your average trash mob will hit you for around 800-1kish if your well equiped and well buffed etc etc. With VoM purely on its own without any supplimentry healing the epic mob (esp. if its 70/71+) could easly hit for 10% of ur HP = you die instantly before next 10% regen can fire. Now what does make it uber is if u have wards/heals up then it bulsters them very very nicely. but unless a healer has used his rez w/ no penalities for a minute (think inqs. have the ability) you will seriously underpowered. Tho u can still tank with the sickness if healers are on thier toes. And have you guys seen the def/taunt spell that guardians get??... there is no doubt that they are kings of maintaining agro over long periods of time esp. on a single target. Use zerkers are kings at mainting group agro with insolent gibe and SNATCHING agro... but then we back to berate as the only group taunt (guardians have a similar taunt). and Rambo (open wounds + destruction) helps alot in maintain agro. All these have 3 mins reuse timers so there are gaps where u have to very aware about ur group agro hold. We are lucky in this that guardians dont have this ability and it does allow for more flexible group setups... but only in group encounters. This may help for you to see what spells guardians have and any other class for that matter (not sure how up-to-date it is) http://home.comcast.net/~eq2gamedata/main.html And as i said before if you have the Right group setup + Right MA system... you will not need a zerker to tank. Imo raid leaders may get lazy and not bother swapping groups around for zerker/guardian if a guardian can tank all. More often then not im put on Add duty on final named encounters or i serve as the OT. Vladnor The Berserk 70 Berserker Unity Splitpaw
I completely disagree - On our Venekor CORE raiding entity our two MT's are Berserkers - and as some of our guards get a bit more equiped, they will be also - it really doesn't matter the minor edge that one class has over the other is very situational. Personally we have monks tsunami pull most of our encounters than insolent gibe off - it works fantastic. I never have problems keeping aggro and imo it's quite mana efficient, no need for a hate transfer in the MT group at all. IMO Zerkers are a bit more mana efficient at holding raid aggro due to having such great dps. And VoM has saved me multiple times, the mob CAN hit you for more than 10% hp at any one second because you have healers healing you constantly, the regen, popup health from VoM + heals still hitting you makes it very easy to get back to full health - it's almost a get out of jail free card about 20 - 30% of the time. All in all I think in some situations Guards might be a hair better, and in some Zerks - It really doesn't make a difference. Message Edited by Zervun on 09-01-2006 08:21 AM
When will people figure out that they really are wasting their time, and probably only provoking an unneeded arguement with other uninformed people trying to find out what all the differences are between zerks and guards, and who is better in what situation. Just play the game with whatever friend is on. Zerkers (tanking everything successfully) = Guards (tanking everything successfully) not saying zerks = guards as far as every detail. I'm saying either one can get the job done doing the encounter pretty much the same way, or a different way. Does it really matter if one of the classes has to do something a little different than the other because of their combat arts aren't exactly the same? Each encounter has atleast a few ways you can do things. Which means zerks can get it done using their couple different ways, and guards can get it done with their couple different ways. It doesn't matter. Don't forget that either one could have some bad luck, or good luck, and I think this will make more of a difference in things, than the difference in the classes will.
I've leveled both a zerker and guardian up to lvl 60. I've also retired my zerker and solely play my guardian now. You take a guardian and a zerker and put them in the same gear and give them both same Tier CA's. Then stick them 1 at a time into a 5man MT group setup and the guardian will be the better raid tank. That is the trade-off of the berserker class ranking in the top 5 of DPS. If you guys want the best raid tank then betray and become guardians. If you want a good raid tank with great DPS then stay as a berserker. Some people play berserkers as DPS units, which they are great for. Some make zerkers to be tanks, which they are good at. Can't have it all. You guys should count yourself lucky in the fact that you get that choice. Guardian's do not. They are solely tanks. You'll never see a guardian brought into a group as a "dps" unit.
I dont post much but I have posted a few times before last time I spoke here I was asking questions about raiding and what is good avoid mit questions. Now I am a very accomplished Main Raid tank on AB server. I have tanked most the high end raid zones including Deathtoll and I dont think really there is that much difference in Guardians and Zerkers. Gear makes a big part of high end raiding but I think the person behind that tank should also be added into the mix. I have seen Godly tanks and I have seen tanks that make you wonder if he/she Was ebay'd Both our class's have strong points and weakness's HP can easily be over come with gear and stil maintain Very high Mit and Avoid. I would never trade in my zerker for any other class. To say one class is better than the other is wrong IMHO
Zervun, if dont need hate transfer/hate gain in you group, id be incline to say your MRF isnt utilising its full dps potential, agro transfer/gain was put in there for a reason. For example, i cannot max my dps without say Amends me, i have to limit it severly so i dont pull agro etc etc Even then i pull agro for the poor pali who has amends on me lol >=o) Im not saying zerkers are seriously flawed, im saying that our mechanics are different to a guardian at a basic level, you cant play a guardian the way u play a zerker and u cant play a zerker the way you play a guardian. Guardians can hold single target hate with greater efficiency then zerkers can imo. But this is the way SOE wants it, guardians are essentially good and zerkers (although nuetral) can be seen as the bad opposite. That is zerkers are given more off. abilities and guards given more def. abilities. Im not moaning or whinning, im just saying thats the way SoE wanted it and so thats the way it will be. Guardians can tank better, not by far, but can still do it better then zerkers, but they suck at everything else in the game. Zerkers, can still tank all T7 RAID content (killed tarinax many times with mi buckler) but guardians are your safest bet for most - except large groups of adds, but then again agro transfer/gain in group fixs that for em, jus with zerkers u dont need that extra hate transfer . Imo its a good balance. I got 1.5 - 2k on parses so im happy, im not sitting back and twiddling my thumbs while i wait for a mob to tank alone or with the guardian. Thats why i dont like ppl that call for a dps nerf on berserkers coz then we will be the guardians ugly cousin, not to mention dps is a huge part of our agro generating ability. (try goin buckler line with only 49% double attack then go 76% and 11dps -->19dps ) Its kinda along the lines with what Mammoch says. I wouldnt want my berserker to do gimpish dps in exchange for outright taunts and taunt debuffs etc sexy as they are. I rolled a berserker because they are BERSERKERS!!! >=o) Vladnor The Berserk 70 Berserker Unity Splitpaw Message Edited by Thor Of Halla on 09-10-2006 05:29 PM
funny that people still discuss this. raids are completing everything in game with a gaurdian OR a berserker tanking. not with any one of these ideas of whether one has an edge in any area, whether it's aggro control on single target, groups, VOM, TOS, blah blah blah. Nobody cares. Does anyone really think that these raids that have been completing everything in game, with either class, are second guessing anything? Like, hmm, maybe if our guard betrays to zerker, or we guild a zerker, we should have better group aggro control, and their insolent gibe will be better somehow because someone said so on the forums....or maybe we should guild a guardian so he can tos for 3 hits and the healers can say, "wow with aguardian, I don't have to spam heal for those 10 seconds (although I will still have to spam trauma cure) " - lol Yes, these two classes do provide a very very slight edge, in certain circumstances, but to analyze the differences and try to say that one will really make a difference over the other, is totally rediculous.
