I remember when I tried eq2 before conjurers could offer a bit to groups, still true?

Thanks this helps a bit, seems we get a nice variety there.

What everyone is trying to do is correct your misconceptions about what a Conjuror is. Xalmat has played a Conjuror since release. I've played one since six months after release. Between us we've probably got a pretty good idea of what a Conjuror is and what it isn't.
You are stating what you "think" a Conjuror is. You're wrong. A Conjuror is not "consistent" DPS. A Conjuror is a high DPS class which requires a *lot* of knowledge and no small amount of skill to achieve it's maximum performance.
It sounds to me like you are attempting to justify a less than optimal performance by saying "I can always do it this well". If you are looking to be just a solo and occasional group player, that's fine. No one will pay much mind to a casual player who doesn't perform to the top of their class. And frankly, for that kind of player, class selection is pretty much irrelevant.
On the other hand, if you intend to be a hardcore heroic grouper or a raider, that sort of thing won't fly.
The pet won't do the work for you, it actually makes your job harder. You have to not only keep yourself alive, you have to keep your pet alive, in the proper position and pointed at the right target. All while pushing your own DPS at the mob and maintaining proper positioning.
It's a rewarding class when played by a knowledgeable and skilled player. In the hands of that kind of player, you'll never have trouble getting a spot in a raid. On the other hand, there aren't really very many of those players. There are a LOT of bad Conjurors out there who put up less than impressive DPS numbers but maintain that they are offering utility. Those types quickly discover what everyone else already knows: Conjurors are a DPS class with a bare touch of utility. Your reputation will be based on your ability to generate face melting DPS.

Omg would you please relax? Are you an elitist or something? I know how to play dps/pet classes I garuntee I have been playing mmorpgs for a long time possibly longer then you, and I am sorry but wizards dps burst damage hits much harder in one spell while conjurers have many dots and dds to cast in one fight, the wizard is designed to be more burst dps then the conjurer this is why it is consistent it is easy to tell by looking at cast times and spell describtions, I never said that this class takes no skill to play, I know how to play my casters and you really need to stop making assumptions about me it is very annoying.
Some classes run out of power faster this is why some classes are only able to do mass amounts of dps in short bursts while others do not run out and able to do it over long periods of times this is not that hard to understand, but maybe you have just been playing the class to long and are way to biased about your conjurer not to mention defensive it is just a freaken game anwyays.

I could be wrong but I am pretty sure soe would not allow 2 wizard classes not to mention there is probably enough wizards running around anyways.

And maybe you think this is like EQ1 and carry miconceptions about what EQ2 was like when you played it heh. This game is nothing like it was or anything like its predecessor. Banditman and Xalmat offer good solid advice on the conjy class. Should listen to them. They aren't picking on you, just trying to understand where you are coming from. You are the one sounding defensive. Just relax heh.

I see it differantly and actually some classes are very similar to eq1, I am not carrying any misconsumptions I actually expected to be completely differant but it was not that much differant so far, and the last poster is not solid advice I garuntee if you put this in the wizards forum they would prove the numbers, he is just defensive of the conjurer class or an elitist, it is silly to think of conjurers as big numbers in one or two spells because I know for a fact that is not how they dps.

Maamadex wrote:

Indeed, the comparisons happen a lot, and have happened ever since EQ2 was released. Which is why it's in the stickied Conjuror FAQ:


Q. I just came over from EQLive after playing the Mage class, and ...
I know exactly what you're going to say, and I'm stopping you right there.

Repeat after me.

"This is not EQLive."

It's true, Conjurors of EQ2 and Magicians of EQ1 have a lot of similarities. But both classes, and indeed both games, are so radically different from each other that a comparison is impossible. And to say that one class is gimped over the other because "X" spell is missing doesn't hold water either.

Trust me, with this attitude, you'll be a lot happier.

If it makes sense to you that conjurers should do the same dps as a wizard then you should not be playing a conjurer, pet classes are not suppose to be the best dps while most should be around secondary or third there are other classes who actually deserve the high numbers espically considering wizards are harder and more boring to solo they need to be able to offer something more to the class like major group single target dps.

They can still approach and occasionally exceed the dps a wizard can put out. I've seen good conjy's do it. They should be played as a dps class cause they do excell at it.

Maamadex wrote:

Conjurors are a DPS class. End of story.

Ok as a High dps class, . Thats what i meant. I also don't think its elitist when someone tells you how to get the most out of a class you are playing. Unless they are being insulting. Necros and Conjys both offer a ton of single target dps nowadays, they just achieve it differently than wizards. And this is mostly a recent phenomenon, with changes that happened with SF.

Keep in mind the folks that are telling you conj are dps are also folks that are raiding hard and taking down some of the high end mobs. If your in the same boat then you can get the gear that will allow you to do the dps they are talking about. If your not getting access to that kind of gear, then your ability to dps might be a little less than you expect. For what it matters, I find a lower gear sorc normally able to out dps a lower gear conj. Its just easier to find the gear that will bump up a sorc, they can use the same gear a conj can as well as just straight mage gear. A summoner needs mage gear that bumps up the pet as well as them selves. That just my 2cents worth

It is the way they type it, I can easily recognize an elitist, I am not for sure he is but after playing as many mmos as I have you will develop a nice elitist meter.

Again never said conjurers did not dps well, amazing how many people do not actually read the post.

I give up on this thread.

Umik@Nagafen wrote:

Mostly those Conjurors who don't understand their class.
The problem 75% of the Conjurors I inspect have is that they simply don't understand the class is 75% about their pet. They'll be wearing all kinds of gear that's GREAT for Sorcerer's or Enchanter's, but has no pet effect at all. This is why a Conjuror can be beaten badly by a Sorcerer.
Heck, I'm one of the higher DPS'ing Conjurors on my server, and BOTH of my charms are still just LEGENDARY items. I've seen most of the Fabled Mage charms in the game drop, short of RT4 and UDW3, and they are all remarkably terrible for a Summoner.
Itemization is tricky for a Summoner. You have to understand the class well and know how to pick the item based on what it REALLY does for you, not what some silly Fabled/Legendary tag says.

Perhaps that is best for all of us xa.

jay777 wrote:

I very much disagree here on multiple counts.
1) Conjurors (as well as some other classes, Necromancers and Rogues) can get close to or surpass t1 dps depending on fights and available buffs. If you go to eq2flames and look at the parse threads for wizards and conjurors you can see how high people get. Rogues too btw can also parse pretty high and typically tend to have better utility to boot. You need to look at some parses and what the end of the game looks like cause it might not be what you think. Usually though, between the dps classes theres not gonna be a severe difference on average. Note I am talking a fully supported raid setting here, since this is the most competitive setting and the one where class balance is trickiest and people are most acutely aware of it. (Just to be clear, i wouldn't expect a wiz or a conj to win every fight if equally geared/skilled, but rather the fight to be determined by who has the better bard/chanter, luck (who gets more random disables because SoE loves those) and the kind of fight it is rather than one always beating the other.)
2) Having a pet in a raid is actually more often a detriment to your performance not a benefit. Your pet has a huge threat output, and there is no pet aggro meter and he is also squishier than you at a certain point in raid progression (unless necro with bloodpact). This is especially noticable once you are working on the more difficult content of this expansion (UD Hardmodes, Ark, etc). The pet also deals with geometry issues (LoS issues, Pathing Issues) that can cause it to be absolutely suicidal on some fights by it constantly trying to get too close to a mob with deadly aes (that are always going off mind you). Our utility is also considered alright but pretty negligable in the grand scheme of things.
3) If our DPS isn't close to a wizard, or the other higher dps classes there is simply no room for us in a raid. A conj who can't dps will never be used by any guild that is worth a damn. As it is, a common set up might be 4 tanks (many multi-tank encounters this expac), 8 healers, 4-6 bards (Double bard is incredible if you can do it, cause unlike summoners, bards have very powerful and valued utility. Victorious Concerto in particular, is game changing), 4 Enchanters or something close. There is only 24 slots in a raid. That leaves 2-4 slots for Wizards, Warlocks, Swashbucklers, Brigands, Assassins, Rangers, Necromancers and Conjurors. You can open a spot or two by getting rid of a healer from a dps group, but this can be shakey if you are dealing with a cure heavy, curse heavy fight like the harder ones tend to be. This is the reality of raids, where 2/3 of your entire raid force is Healers/Bards/Chanters leaving very few spots for other classes.
Lastly I just wanted to also remark about the solo comment. Honestly the whole, oh hey its easier to solo so you don't need to have a role in raids argument is old. Chanters have incredible solo and they are the most desired mage to have in a raid bar none. Not to mention that with the dps wizards and warlocks do and how good some of their defensive AA are (Did you know that a properlly speced wizard/warlock is almost indestructable in PvP? Which they can level with btw) I doubt they have any serious issues soloing anything either. Their kite tools are pretty powerful if they even had to use them to kill stuff easily.I'm not even going to go in depth about other archtypes in respect to this, talking about SKs in this context would be like shooting fish in a barrel.

I hope that sheds some light on the issue, I don't know what you know about the end game but this is what I know and I know it because of first hand experience in addition to talking to many many other conjurors/necromancers while I've been here. I've had many summoner friends who ended up playing utility despite being damn good at their class because their guild needed good utility over a good summoner. It's a common enough story to point to where its kinda sad to be honest. I hope though you can at least consider the view point I'm laying out here and not just dismiss it off hand as some sort of elitism. Cause I don't know how else to describe my experiences and what I've seen other people go through other than the above.

Conj is a top end dps class with a little bit of utility.
If your views of being a conj is not being top end DPS then the class isnt for you.
Preety cut and dry.......Conjs are brought to a raid/group for one thing and thats to dps.
If you cant grasp that the class isnt for you.
No one cares how much MMOing you have done ...cause you will find others that have done more and have done better.And you will find people that have done less and are better.
So sorry if that sounds "elitist" but its relistic.

No you guys are just in denial because you want top dps yada yada yada, you have no right to tell me what is for me and what is not you are not god and you do not know what is best for me so back off dude.

Illys do not do high dps of course they can solo well they are mezzers, again I NEVER SAID CONJUERERS CANNOT DPS WHAT MUST I DO TO GET THIS THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULLS I HAVE SAID THIS ATLEAST 8 TIMES WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU???????

I just know wizards in short fights will always out dps conjurers as long as gear and etc comes into play, and in longer fights conjurers out dps wizards its that simple folks. Send me the link if you want to prove me wrong otherwise I DO NOT BELIEVE YOU.

And you cannot justify an elitist attitude just stop lol.

jay777 wrote:

Again, this just shows you do not know what you're talking about.
I've out-dps'd Wizards in short fights (sub 1 minute), and I've been out-dps'd by Wizards in longer fights (5 minutes and up). And we're talking Wizards who are comparably geared to me, and comparably skilled as me. It also depends on what your definition of short and long is, as well as what specific content you are doing, as some content heavily favors Conjurors, while other content might heavily favor Wizards.
You might want to look at this parse from the top end-game raid guild on a relatively short (under 1 minute) fight. This guild is the very best guild in the game, with the very best geared players in the game. Their top DPS in that fight is: a Conjuror named Solja. He beat out a Wizard, two Assassins, and a Swashbuckler, classes that often beat us out on the parse.
This is not atypical of end game Conjurors.
Conjurors must deal top end DPS to justify their spot on a raid. If they don't, then they are useless to the raid force.

jay777 wrote:

Given an equally geared, skilled and buffed Wizard and Conjuror, I would grudgingly say that the Wizard is probably capable of generating more DPS over the long term. It's not a great difference, but I would give the nod ever so slightly to the Wizard.
However, it's pretty rare that you have that situation. Usually one player is more skilled, or one is better geared, or one is better buffed. In those cases, you simply have to let the numbers tell the story.