Gaige and Darkvillan, Its not like I was trying to say it was making the skill unusable... laugh all you want /shrug Tomanak, I thank you for a constructive response to a DISCUSSION... you made some extremely valid points that helped me understand the beneficial aspects to the change. This doesnt have to be an argument or even a debate folks... this isnt a change thats making a bunch of us say that we're leaving... just informing and discussing that there IN FACT has been a use for this song that is being removed. for the record.. when duo tanking I do in fact use a STR potion as well Edit: driving to work I also remembered another important use that I keep forgetting to bring up. When mentoring(something I do quite often) it often encumbers me... so while I WILL agree that its not its intended use... Hyran's used to be an excellent tool for helping me to help others. I am often in odd small groups helping out guildies... yes even then I need the hate buff to keep aggro off of aspiring wizzies and the like, AS WELL AS keeping me from running at -35% even when I change 3 of my boxes out. This is not something I am trying to argue... but it is a function of the song I dearly miss. Gee I love explaining to my young guildies why I refuse to group with them... though the ones that have understand completely. Heck... I'd just about be happy if they brought back the hate gain that resulted in recasting our group buffs to compensate for the hate part Message Edited by Lindar Phamoncry on 12-14-2006 07:16 AM
yw I do try not to be a fanatic Motown you are right. I have to admit I am guilty of not considering that there is life before PoS. Only thing I can say is that Ive had it so long, I cant remember not having it, but I apologize to those sub 52 for making presumptions. One of the things I have always liked about the dirge community is that we tend to avoid the all out, no holds barred screamfests that occur on these forums. We have made it thorough worse changes than this and on the whole kept out collective heads, let us not devolve now. Like it, Love it or hate it, this is a change that is not going away. SOE has stated that pretty plainly. Instead of focusing on who or what is nerfed and why, perhaps our time and energies would be better served focusing on the 'promised' changes to bards to ensure that the devs know that in order to offset this 'loss' we would like X enhanced, or a bump to this skill or a fix to another. While I am not adversely affected by this change, others obviously are. So we as a community need to work together to ensure that all Dirges are satisfied. At least as much as we can be given SOEs penchant to give with one hand and smack down with the other
My sincere apologizes if I've come across as belittling others opinions or seem insensitive to the concerns of soloers. <- that sentance there is about the only thing that has stayed the same in five version of this post I've written. I have to admit at this point I'm flashbacking to the Lanet's thread of yore. Which I tried to avoid being sucked into like the plague. Those cyclic threads went over and over the change with neither side budging, until a tactless chanter stumbled in and irritated everyone. I could contibute to this by restating my opinion again. I could comment on what I like about the dirge board is how in general we don't flame each other and tend to stay at a level of civil and edifying discourse. Ok, so I did just say that. Which I guess is the point I've been rewriting and rephraseing to try and get across. People are never going to agree on whether this is a good change or bad change. So, unless you have something new to say why repeat yourself? And yes I feel like a hypocrite, cause I've said this before. ;P Must escape the thread of infinate repeat!!!! *tries to run for it, but doens't make it due to slow bard runspeed* Message Edited by Salmastryon on 12-14-2006 11:27 AM
Hopefully this won't toss gasoline onto a dying fire, but the reason you looked up to those dirges for information and knowledge, Dark, whichever ones they were, was because they picked it up bit by painful bit. In many cases, that involved changing prior opinions on the basis of new arguments or new information. I, personally, wasn't born knowing how to play a Dirge, in fact, you could probably find a former groupmate or two who'd make a strong case that I still don't. I solo a lot, group regularly, duo / trio seldom, raid on special occasions, and I'm quite aware that my opinions in the areas I've less experience in aren't completely substantiated. But I spit 'em out anyway, we're all friends here, (give or take a troll or three) I'm not going to get away with an egregious error without someone correcting it. How else do you learn, for goodness' sake? Whysprr
One other small comment: While I agree you've been roughed up a bit unjustly, Motown, I do think you're overstating the case on the overall pattern of treatment of dirges. Frankly, the Lanet's and Jael's changes( especially the latter), modest though they seemed, are a tremendous boon to solo or small group play, and decently usable even for full groups. While the long-term issues like Zander's / Tomb's are like a nagging rattle in an otherwise good old car, I don't think one can really make a strong argument that the long-term trend has been downward -- especially from your playstyle. It's taken me rouglhy 18 months to make level 70, so I think I'm on the same wavelength -- though I never tried to haul ironwood boxes around the wilderness, that notion never even occurred to me. Sheesh. Whysp
Because I'm not longer a level 50 climbing up the ranks...On the opposite side of the spectrum, rereading posts and wondering to myself "Did I really do that?" I could name probably 8 Dirges that post here that no matter what the topic thier information is spot on with raiding, or xp groups, pvp, or even soloing...Now, whether they have poor tact or great tact depends... If you dont have knowledge in a situation, the best thing is to be careful on how you word your posts...Because some baby Dirge is going to come along and think that he needs to have Hyrans on em and he is going to be wondering "Why do tanks yell at me for pulling agro..." Unlike some Dirges I've only played my Dirge for about 6 months...But 4 months have been mainly raiding...So my view points come from a raid perspective.../shrug Doesn't mean I'm not ignorant to what and how to run a XP group, solo, or even dou... Additionally, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Of course we are all allowed to give those opinions. We learn from one another I agree that, but if you are going to argue a point for 3 pages, then the last second switch...Its the contridiction in your view points...Like saying a Dirge can DPS the same as a Zerker... I live off of facts...I know the loss of the STR is minimal in the scheme of things as far as you or a Tanks, or a whoever you decide to use the buff on will gain from the STR. Just run a test, if you can prove to me on paper that if you lose 78 STR that my dps was impacted by 100 (for example) points of dmg (a autoattack swing)...I will concede... But until then, I only apologize for not using more tact in my personal posts, to "Discuss" this topic.
I still beleive it is a nerf to my play style. When I duo which I did alot, I am usually the tank. Again the str buff was beneficial to me weather it was minimal or not it still added 78 str which I did not have. Even though the hate is the primary reason I casted it; they are still removing a benifit that everyone who it was aplied to was able to use. With the changes that benefit is reduced to the classes that have aggression as a skill. So i still beleive this is a Nerf to the spell as it will offer less benefits than it did before even if it wasn't the primary reason I casted it. Plus 78 might not seem like alot to you but if you devide it by your total str and multiply it by 100 you will se it is quite a nice percetage chunk.
I think it would be better if you would just remind us that they way you play a dirge is the correct and only way and that we have no clue what we know about the dirge class. :smileywink:
Guys, its not that bad. I realize everyone has their own opinions. As I see it opinions fall into two categories: mine and the wrong ones.
Folks, read the designator under Gaige's name and complete the quote. He might, well, be being ironic. Or not.
Its not nice to call me an idiot, however I suppose I opened myself up to that when I let MG put that MacBeth quote as my title.
I think what Whysprr had in mind was the last part of that quote. "Signifying Nothing." Now to interject a bit. Gaige and I have had our share of round abouts on a number of issue. And although I know he is a recent convert to the ways of the bard Im not going to totally disreguard everything he has to say. But he should also know that many of the bards who comment here have played every aspect of this class fully and through much termoil. So please bare that in mind when you come here to coment on our issues. Many of us hold that hyrans should have the conc slot taken off because it is directed at only ONE individual. We used to be able cast it on more than one tank. Weather or not others feel there isnt a need for that is irrelevent. We can accept that things change as well. But based on the fact that they are now dropping a stat for a skill and that they have also made this toggle and with a 30 sec recast when it drops, the only fair thing to to is take the conc slot off. If you want to make it a timed buff fine say like 15 min ok what ever. But Dirges can be better served taking the conc slot OFF.
I signify all kinds of stuff! I'm all about being significant! I also realize I haven't played a dirge since release, but then again neither did you Warbird. Oh and making Hyran's a 15min buff would kill the feasibility of a dirge in the MT group, so lets just strike that from the record. Message Edited by Gaige on 12-14-2006 12:18 PM
not to argue but how would that kill the feasability of a dirge in the MT group? if its still directed at a grouped friend then we've lost nothing but the used conc slot. This is how our buffs worked at release... switching us out of group would kill the buff ( I am only assuming thats where you were going with that) Heck... we'd even be able to use Death Bearer, Boon, or Rianna's! maybe even our Noxious buff without sacrificing Harl's! and I would hardly consider anything with that possibility overpowered
What you have experinced as a dirge is totally different than we have since before LU13. You might be better qualified to talk about the monk experince since launch than the dirges however. The sole purpose of a dirge is not raiding. Yes it is an option and a play style but not the only one. You make it sound like that is the only option we have. Some dirges tank, some dirges do dps, and some dirges are just strictly buff and support. Some try to balance all. Just we all play different and have different views what a dirge is and can do.
But we are debating the significance of the loss of the STR, not who has more knowledge of their class because of how long they've played it...Some people have played a Dirge since the game came out...Some people have tried to level their dirge to 70 in like 18 months...Doesn't have to do that people want to scream nerf when the ability isn't nerfed, its just changed...Not for worse, for better...Only enhancing game play for EVERYONE...Have you leveled a new toon recently? I've seen tanks lose agro more now then ever before.
