*** Combat *** - Aggression skill now affects the resistability of Taunting * Guardians, Berserkers, Paladins, Shadowknights, Monks, Bruisers, Brigands, Swashbucklers all start out with the Aggression skill. Their primary defensive stances also increase their Aggression skill. * Conjurer and Necromancer Fighter pets use the Aggression skill, and their defensive stances also increase it. * Primary Single Target and Encounter taunts now use Aggression skill, along with Rescue, Taunt Procs, and any other taunting abilities. * NPCs that taunt also use the Aggression skill. * Fury: Irritating Swarm: Reduces Aggression skill. * Warlock: Spellbinding Pact: Increases Aggression skill. * Troubador: Magical Boon: Increases Aggression skill. * Dirge: Hyran's Angry Sonata: Increases Aggression skill instead of Strength. * Troubador: Demoralizing Processional: Reduces Aggression skill. Could be an interesting change.. with a lot of classes AA's getting nerfed in this GU I'm glad dirge's were just mentioned in this part Do you think the increased aggression skill will be worth more than the strength buff? I think it could be as long as the aggression skill that it adds is a noticeable amount...and that a tank can't get the aggression skill to a point where someone buffing it doesn't do anything (and they give these other supposed boosts that lockeye spoke of in his recent reply to a thread). Btw what is Troubador: Magical Boon? is that their skills buff? just curious I didn't know they would get stuff that does + to hate.. Edit: Oh and also someone in dirge channel brought this up: - Korgo the Vault Keeper within the Vaults of El’Arad dungeon now has more profession hats for those willing to risk the challenge of obtaining them. .. I know its far fetched but.. could that mean we might get hats out of there?!? Not like they'd be worth wearin tho Message Edited by Irolas on 12-11-2006 10:32 PM Message Edited by Irolas on 12-11-2006 11:03 PM
For my taste i would love to keep the str but that will not happen, Why? cause str buff may help you solo and the Mt gaining aggro as also he would have a bigger powerpool with the changes this buff got 0% use for your soloplay and cannot realy say how much use in groups and in raids.. Did you have the feeling tanks did have trouble landing their taunts to this point? Now hyrans will give em..hm maybe 3-4% less ressist chance on mobs that are higher lvl then himself cause with your aggression skill maxed you will have goood chance to land it So its most worth for highend raiding and high end groups If you like to duo youll sure miss the xtra strength on your tankin partner or yourself and you will not even think about putting the new one up on him. So imho this song lost much of its usefullness and is indeed narrowed down to situational, but Devs said it will come so no use to ramble about it.
if they take away the conc slot for it all fine with it, Yes as i said for raids this MAY be good, and for the upcoming bard changes... Ill wait for thos an give the devs the chance to convince me to stay.
/sigh can't make everyone happy... Well as a raid Dirge, I'm all for it. I've used Hyrans on myself, when I've tanked in goof off situations, but otherwise, with the EoF AA lines you can really maximize a dou setup even more then before. Give it a shot, if anything, groups will love you more. Not like taunting on PVP servers isnt useless...
Hyran's is now a buff only for someone who can taunt. Look at the list of the classes which will even have the skill agression. Dirges don't have taunts, the skill cannot be used by a dirge. While, in the past, Hyran's could have been used by a dirge while soloing or in a duo or odd group to tank, for that use, it has been heavily nerfed. It is now only useful for raiding and conventional groups with tank that has taunts. 1/2 of the buff will -only- work for someone who has the skill agression and can directly taunt. As for promised changes to bards.... I won't hold my breath, I don't particular think a gnome (or an Erudite) should look like a Teir'dal.
Its getting to the point where Dirges Forums are becoming redudant. A Dirge, like any bard, is used for utility. Dirges provide so many options to a group. If its offensive and straight DPS setup we can provide it, if its defensive we can do that too...Want to raid, we have some top notch setups. Wanna solo, well we can do that, and dou sure that too...If you are a Dirge, and are douing with a tank, or another scout, the Hate Gain is still important. But, as Dirges we already increase Str by a nice amount. In "conventional" groups with a half way decent tank (not a raid equipped, just not a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]) I hardly ever run my Hyrans...Maybe if the tank is losing agro, will I change it out...But its a buff that allows us some flexibility. But, with the Aggression Skill being added in LU30, the Dev's are looking ahead at once again making Bards just that much more important to groups or to raids...Ok, sure the average group xpin with a probably won't see taunts get resisted as much as a raid force...But you ever go to Nizara? Ok, maybe Niz is too situational... And what's removing the concentration going to do? We were asking for that before SoE removed the STR mod from Hyrans...Now they remove the STR mod (give us the skill enhancement, a benefit to a tank...cause thats the "use" for hyrans, we just hybridnized the ability), and you will settle with SoE removing a concentration slot??? If you are going to agrue the use of Hyrans, well the primary class in EQ2 that needs hate gain is a Tank...Whether is Raid, or xp group. Like I said early, we just realized we could use it on anyone we want to increase their hate gain. And some scouts do have taunts. If you want to [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] about something that ALL Dirges could benefit by, yell about us not being able to use poisons. Cause I know there are some poisons I would like to use. If you dont raid, no matter what, you'll still notice the benefit from the ability. The lost of 78 STR really isn't going to be that noticeable (Guild tanks already can see cap on STR)...Its a trivial argument. Good Job SoE...
In raids, I could care less about this change. +78 STR isn't a big deal at all. This change will suck in small groups because you won't be able to use Hyran's on yourself. I 2 man Nest and Acadechism daily with a Necro and use Hyran's on myself. It's going be a lot harder to hold aggro off him without it. Nerfing it with this change and making it togglable (when the tank dies you have to wait 30s to recast it on him) when EoF came out are 2 nerfs on this spell. It wouldn't be unreasonable to ask for the conc slot removed now of this and Alin's. -Kalll, 70 Dirge of Impulse on Mistmoore
I'm hopefull atm with this change. Admittedly I really only raid anymore so how this will effect a group I really don't know. What I do know is that when our MT gets both taunts resisted on a pull we are FUBAR. If this change makes it so that at least one lands where before both missed - I say screw the strength.
I don't understand what the whining about this change is all about. Obviously its supposed to be used on the tank, as the main thing it does is increase hate. I always assumed the str thing was there to add power/dmg which indirectly helped the tank increase their hate. We already have a str/agi buff. What this change does is make Hyran's more effective for its designed purpose... increasing hate. Seriously, sometimes it seems like you guys will cry about anything.
My biggest problem is that the dirge buff is the only one that *replaced* functionality as opposed to simply adding it. That's my beef with the change. Regardless, the whole story has not been told yet.
I'm of two minds about this change. First off if the Agression buff does make an actually difference in taunt resists on top of the fighters natural defensive buff buff than I'm going to be fine with the change. On the other hand if the tanks don't need the agression buff from Hyran's to stick those taunts, I'll be one unhappy dirge. Hyran's will still do its thing in PuG and probably will help those lower taunts not get resisted as much. As for when I tank, I mainly put it on for the hate gain which will still be there. I don't mind losing a str buff to myself if it helps things out on the other side of the equation. As for soloing or using Hyran's to buff str, I never really used it for those purposes. I tried out hyran's soloing for awhile, but I found in the end I would rather have PoS, Elusion or Tomb's up and use a str potion instead. And yes I never use Bria's soloing, instead I used totems and food and drink. I do realize that for people who primarily solo they often will skew there gear towards Int instead of str because of hyran's. I look at it this way, a while back raiders took a hit on Lanet's being changed to a more group/solo friendly spell and now the shoe is on the other foot. Just some additional perspective on things. The other spells to gain Aggression were stances and skills that buffed all magical skills. The debuffs that gained aggression are the ones that debuffed all magical skills. So looking at that, I can understand why they thought something needed to be taken away from Hyran's for it to gain aggression. Below are the master versions of all the CAs/spells that gained aggression modifiers except the summoner spells for comparison. You'll notice Hyran's does more than all the stances. It is about even with the Troubador buff that also does focus, but does less than the Warlock's buff that just buffs the casting skills. Beneficial Aggression Spells: Dirge's Hyran's Seething Sonata M1 -Increases Hate Gain of target by 41% -Increases Aggression of target by 29 Warlock's Seal of Dismal Logic M1 -Increases Disruption, Subjugation, Ordination, Ministration and Aggression of group members(AE) by 33 Troubador's Dove Song M1 -Increases Disruption, Subjugation, ordination, Ministration and Agression of group members (AE) by 28 -Increases Focus of group members (AE) by 57 Beserker's Courageous Will M1 -Decreases Slashing, Piercing and Crushing of caster by 17.4 -Increases Agression of caster by 13.9 -Increases Defense and Parry of caster by 28 -Increases Mitigation of caster vs cold damage by 1856 -Increases the caster's effectiveness of worn armor vs all physical damage by 15% Guardian's Steadfast Stance M! -Decreases Slashing, Piercing and Crushing of caster by 17.4 -Increases Agression of caster by 13.9 -Increases Defense and Parry of caster by 28 -Increases Mitigation of caster vs heat damage by 1856 -Increases the caster's effectiveness of worn armor vs all physical damage by 15% Shadowknight's Infernal Circle M1 -Increases Wis 145 -Decreases Slashing, Piercing and Crushing of caster by 17.4 -Increases Agression of caster by 13.9 -Increases Defense of caster by 28 -Increases Mitigation of caster vs disease damage by 1856 -Increases the caster's effectiveness of worn armor vs all physical damage by 15% Paladin's Faithful Benediction M1 -Increases Wis 145 -Decreases Slashing, Piercing and Crushing of caster by 17.4 -Increases Agression of caster by 13.9 -Increases Defense of caster by 28 -Increases Mitigation of caster vs magic and divine damage by 1856 -Increases the caster's effectiveness of worn armor vs all physical damage by 15% Bruiser's Retribution M1 -Caster will deflect 12% of incoming attacks -Decreases Slashing, Piercing and Crushing of caster by 17.4 -Increases Agression of caster by 13.9 -Increases Defense and deflection of caster by 28 -Increases Mitigation of caster vs poison damage by 1856 -Increases the caster's effectiveness of worn armor vs all physical damage by 20% Monk's Coiling Serpent M1 -Caster will deflect 12% of incoming attacks -Decreases Slashing, Piercing and Crushing of caster by 17.4 -Increases Agression of caster by 13.9 -Increases Defense and deflection of caster by 28 -Increases Mitigation of caster vs mental damage by 1856 -Increases the caster's effectiveness of worn armor vs all physical damage by 20% Aggression Debuffs Fury's Maddening Swarm M1 -Interrupts target encounter -Decreases Disruption, Ordination, Ministration, Subjugation, Focus and Aggression of target encounter by 35 Troubador's Demoralizing Processional M1 - Decreases Disruption, Aggression, Ranged, Focus, Slashing, Crushing, Piercing, Subjugation and ordination of target encounter by 26 At anyrate, I'm cautionly hopeful about this. I'll have to see agression inplay before I can give a final verdict. Edit: cleaned up some of my points. Also, I was wrong about rogue stances. They do have agression. I'll add them some other time. Message Edited by Salmastryon on 12-12-2006 06:11 AM Message Edited by Salmastryon on 12-12-2006 06:12 PM
It is interesting that agression was added to the dirge buff and not the coercer one. It still doesn't make it worth a concentration vs their concentration-less buff, but it does make the dirge one different from theirs in possibly a significant enough way that a dirge will be considered as much of a boon in the MT group as a co-ercer prompting more raids/groups to seek to have both instead of choosing a coercer. Note: No dirge gets passed over for a coercer in my own guild's raids solely because we have only Qeynos classes. However, in the non-guild raids I have been on, it was an issue. BTW, in many ways this is the flip-side of the change to Lanet's which got reduced in damage but added a daze which can't be used in raids (or at least vs epic targets which is the majority of the targets in a raid). Hyran's is becoming almost aid exclusive in the same way Lanet's became almost group/solo exclusive. Message Edited by Rijacki on 12-12-2006 03:01 AM
I'm not whining, though it does annoy me when others tell me what I should and shouldn't value based on their interpretation of how the game "should be played". The bottom line is that the change reduces my soloing capabilities by a non-zero amount. No, I'm not going to quit. No, I'm not saying I can't solo. I am, however, raising my concerns that my dirge is losing something where no other class is. Really, I'm happy that you other guys are pleased with the modified effect. I, however, gain next to nothing from that change so, if it pleases the arbiters, I'd like to ask for some consideration for my loss.
What songs do you use when soloing? I can think of many I would choose to use before adding hate to myself. Self Buff, DPS, Parry, Str/Agil/ and POS is my standard...i might switch out dps for power or boon on occasion or parry for Tombs if fighting lower level mobs. But never would I use the Hate gain song when soloing even with the str.
If you'd like, I'll make a Toon on your server and mail you some copper for YOUR loss...Should be able to make that pretty quickly on noob island... But in all honesty, there are other buffs that you could find at least 3-5 times more useful over Hyrans if you are worried about your ability to solo...
I dont understand the indifference? do you guys never hit anything? do you never solo? I like being able to buff one of my damage stats, ffs im not always able to find groups or indeed always want to and to be able to get str and int as high as possible is good.?
I think what your or calling indifference is the fact that some of us, including myself when we solo don't use hyran's as a str buff and would rather use other buffs instead. Now admittedly once apon a time I did use Hyran's like that, but after investing in potions, food, drink and totems form friendly guildies I found it my base str less of an issue. Now, also to be clear at that point I was admitedly in full melodic zegonite with my tundarin fang and essenia and I had picked up some somewhat decent jewelery through questing. I imagine now with the changes to the how much benefit I got I would be in better shape and possible hyran's has more worth for those in treasured and mastercrafted. But, in the end of it I look at it like this, changes happen sometimes they effect one type of playstyle negative while improving another. In the past it was Lanet's with daze which was of benefit to soloer and groups (though there are some still I imagine who would argue with me on that point), but all in all was a big nerf for raiders. Now we have a change to Hyran's that is benefit to raider, less of a benefit to groups and of detremite to some of the soloers out there. Its the way things happen However, if you are still dissatisfied with the change, the devs have said they are looking at bards. while it has been stated that str will not be going back on Hyran's by Lockeye. Make some other suggestions on how you'd like buffs or spells to be modified to give soloers that additional strength you want. Maybe a dev will see it and use it. Who knows?!
