Anyway, what I meant Rijacki is if you are the encumbered by 5 boxes while naked then Harl's should be plenty, If you need both Hyrans and harls, then maybe you should change, but thats twice you have made your STR arguement sooooo...Here you Dirges go. I decided to really put this to the test and see how much of a difference 78 STR made. I had an open mind to the results...So I this was how I ran my test. Completly unbiased test. I removed my Rallos Zek cloak (no cloak) Removed my Clawed Basilisk Boots, and Finger bone manacles bracelet, NO MOA (only a Swansong Choker)..I also had two xegonite swords made with the highest STR possible, but not imbued or adorned. I removed all variables that would cause a chance to raise DPS. This was the buff setup I ran... Hyrans, Harls, PoS, Bria, and Parry (NO DKtM)...I travelled to bonemire and decided to test this little theory out on the Wasteland Striders and the Ashengeze Basilisk (Both Blue Con non non heroics...I didnt want to die =P ) Stats were as follows: STR: 615 AGI: 502 Buffed with the Hyrans, and Harls... (My Harls is 99 str+Hyrans 78str= 177str) Test 1: an ashengaze basilisk Allies: (00:56) 9699 | 173.20 [Ainwen-slash-393] Ainwen 9699 | 173.20 Same setup, Test 1.2: a wasteland strider Allies: (00:54) 9474 | 175.44 [Ainwen-slash-372] Ainwen 9474 | 175.44 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This time, No Hyrans, but same setup as before. STR: 537 AGI: 502 Test 2.1 (No Hyrans): an ashengaze basilisk Allies: (00:47) 9306 | 198.00 [Ainwen-slash-381] Ainwen 9306 | 198.00 ---This confused me very badly...Same exact setup, no Hyrans and -78 STR. I ran the test two more times. Test 2.2 (No Hyrans): an ashengaze basilisk Allies: (00:56) 9477 | 166.26 [Ainwen-slash-301] Ainwen 9477 | 169.26 ---This made more sense to me. Test 2.3 (No Hyrans): a wasteland strider Allies: (00:54) 12019 | 222.57 [Egorama-Refusal of Faith-899] Ainwen 9318 | 172.56 Egorama 2701 | 50.02 <---(Picked up another groups parse...so I redo this one again) Test 2.4 (No Hyrans): a wasteland strider (I ran away from others to play by myself this time.) Allies: (00:57) 9400 | 164.91 [Ainwen-slash-296] Ainwen 9400 | 166.91 So tie goes to the runner...we'll say 10 more Damage by running Hyrans and the +78 STR you gain. I tried to remove every variable I could think of that would skew the results in anyway...I checked the parse on the 190ish parse (No Hyrans) and just had more criticals. That was the only variable I could not control was the chance to crit. Otherwise, the amount of damage you gain by running hyrans and harl's is minimal, sadly. However, if I dropped Hyrans, and ran Riana's (Master 1: 31 DPS mod) Results were as followed: STR: 537 AGI: 502 Test 3.1 (No Hyrans, Added Riana'sDPS mod): as ashengaze basilisk Allies: (00:43) 9261 | 215.37 [Ainwen-slash-385] Ainwen 9261 | 215.37
Noticeably more DPS...In conclusion to this heated debate, the loss of +78 STR from Hyrans is very minimal...Especially in small group play or soloing. Its very easy, as a dirge, to optimize solo play by running the following buffs: Deaths Door, Riana's, Harls, PoS, Brias...Allowing you to drop and substitute PoS and Brias for Parry and Tombs for harder fights. In full raid gear (adorned and weaps with 57 and 63 rating), with this setup I parsed: an ashengaze basilisk: Allies: (00:09) 9297 | 1033.00 [Ainwen-Luda's Nefarious Wail-3001] Ainwen 9297 | 1033.00 a wasteland strider: Allies: (00:10) 9388 | 938.80 [Ainwen-Luda's Nefarious Wail-2256] Ainwen 9388 | 938.80 Going all out... So, to me, it seems if you want to optimize your DPS, utilize Hyrans in situations when you need to gain agro control, but trying to use Hyrans simply for the +78 str is a minimal gain to your overall dps. I apologize for those I have offened in this post. But numbers don't lie, and yes I agree there are several variables that could influence the results. I understand that different classes benefit from STR differently, but numbers don't lie. But, simply put, Hyrans is designed to allow you to control agro, and the classes that we most directly affect with this buff are tanks, and with the agro skill being added the simple change to hyrans will only make it more valuable to the class that it was obviously intended for. Thus making us more useful :smileyhappy: Thanks for reading.
My only arguement was the math of Harl's + Hyran's & Harl's + Hyran's + strength potion = more strength than Harl's or Harl's + strength potion in response to your statement that Harl's was more strength (implying it was more strength alone). You are still dazed and confused and think that I was ever one who said I used it solo in -any- capacity. -I- never did. (Though I do admire someone thinking outside of the box to do so for the reason he posted). Heck, I cast Hyran's on myself for the first time last Saturday in a guild group of 2 dirges, 1 troubie, and 1 wizard that later picked up 1 ranger. I was the best geared (been raiding the longest) so I was the "tank". It was in SoS and we were trying to finish up our Claymore quests parts there (1.5 steps to go). Oh.. and we even picked up a 3rd dirge for a while, too. As long as we didn't get too many adds at one time, we were fine and smoked stuff pretty fast. Oh.. the ranger and the late added dirge were the only ones less than 70. I think they were 67 or 68. In that group, though, even with Hyran's I was having a tough time keeping agro unless everyone helped me do so. (I suck at dirge tanking *laugh*)
[/QUOTE] I'm always leery of deciding what stuff is intended for [insert cymbal crash here], because, aside from obvious exploits, people are always coming up with interesting new uses for old abilities. I mean, fearing opponents off cliffs, who knew? Sure, Hyrans probably works incrementally better for fighter-tanks than it used to, but it works incrementally worse for self-tanking. It's at best ungraceful, and to my taste limits the discourse, to say one use is more important than the other because it's 'intended'. Wrong way to think about it if you're trying to stay open to innovation. And below level 52, the str boost might've made it the best self-buff choice at times. Been a long time for me, and I never was all that systematic about it anyway. Whysprr [/QUOTE]
Besides the small sample size of your test, there is another very real thing to take into account gear. Without Hyran's your str is sitting at 537, that puts you well with in the range of siminishing returns for str. I'll even go as far to assume you are probably got a fair number of fabled and legendary pieces. Someone with Str that high isn't going to be among those using Hyran's to boost str. It is the people in xegonite, treasured scout or legendary shaman gear with there strength down in the 300s that are going to be using Hyran's and as a result will get more of a damage boost. If I had my Melodic xegonite still around I'd go out and run a test series of at least 50 samples, but I don't and it would be very silly to have a set of melodic indium made for a test. Regardless of whether some of us use Hyran's as a str buff or not, it can be usesd as such and if you do use it as such your losing that felxiablity and function on the buff with the upcoming changes. Yes, if it works as advertised it will bring more to the table as hate buff for tanks, but it will be less benefitical to tanking dirges and soloers. I look at it this way, it is one less must have buff for group situations. I'm really looking forward to the agression changes, cause it irritates me that I have to swap out a buff for hyran's so often since EoF comes out. Heroic creatures shouldn't be resisting M2 and master taunts. :smileymad:
The test made my head hurt anyway...I do appreciate that Hyrans has become widely utilize among any class that might need to obtain and aditional amount of agro (I.E 42% additonal agro modifier)...And I do appreciate all three of your points. Simply put the largest issues with the "nerf" to hyrans is people complaing about it damaging their small group play and/or soloing...Actually I ran more then 7 tests, I have a parse of about 40ish encounters, but tried to limit encounters where I had several criticals... What if I tried the test just butt naked? Well, my Hat, some boots and two swords...that would easily put me down in the 400ish range. Well, nonetheless, I thought it was notable the differences I found...Being a lvl 70 Dirge. And Whysp I'd run the tests 50 times, but at 7am after a night of gamin 40ish attempts is enough and provides me with a definitive enough answer. Ruling out parses where I criticalled more then normal... Also, another thing to note that I forgot too was I ran the tests with 23% haste which could skew the results... Anyway, anyone can setup a parser. Understanding the mechanics behind the ACT parser is simple and you can run your own tests. Just something I threw together to put a small number behind the debates. Message Edited by DarkVillian on 12-16-2006 09:19 AM Message Edited by DarkVillian on 12-16-2006 09:31 AM
Haste will not skew the results, since it's a flat percentage increase, and you were only using strength based output and arts (you were, right?) Not sure how you did fifty tests in the examples you gave. You can get theoretical numbers though, without even running through 50 parse examples per test. Look at your strength arts and check your damage. Look at /weaponstats and check your damage. Then cast Hyran's on yoursefl, and check em again. It pretty much runs at about 5% difference in the 400-500 STR range. In any event, the point is not that it's a small nerf or a large nerf. It IS a nerf, no apparent reason WHY, and the only buff that has to TRADE functionality. Regardless of any other factors, these are still true.
I agree, but I hate the word nerf *chuckle*. How about change with determental overtones? It -is- only the dirge buff that is having something -removed- to have aggression added. No one is arguing that adding agression is bad, merely that taking something away is.. taking something away, a change that's not all positive.
[/QUOTE] True, but given the fact that we dont have ANY taunts and mediocre DPS Id say dirges were never INTENDED to tank. Predators get taunts, we do not. That has to signify something. Now if some one can and does tank on their dirge, more power to em, but it was never an intended function of the class.
Predators get taunts? I thought it was just Rogues that did. Oh and fighters, I guess they get a couple:smileywink: I've never even thought of trying to tank as a dirge. Rogues seem to do okay though. But its not like there is a shortage of tanks, so let 'em I say. Much more stylish to sing the mobs to death, while the tank does all that uncouth swearing and stuff. For those that were used to tanking - well maybe, just maybe the bard 'Have a look at' might give something more positive. Lockeye seemed to think so, anyway. Wouldn't you expect something that works solo, also works in small groups? "I am well aware of its impact to solo gameplay when I made the change and have no intentions of having it give strength again. I'm looking at bard gameplay as a whole to look at boosting other areas, that will certainly more than make up for another strength buff." Message Edited by Antryg Mistrose on 12-18-2006 01:14 PM
I've tanked when duoing with my boyfriend's troubie. I've tanked when those online in guild who needed the same quest updates were 4 bards, a wizard, and a ranger. There weren't any healers (in guild) or tanks of a near enough level on at that time. We went with the odd group and made it work instead of sitting around doing nothing or trying to each find different pickup groups. *shrug* I'm not in the frame of mind that you -must- have certain classes in your group or you can't do diddly, but I know there are a lot who are.
If I was in error on the sub class that gets taunts I apologize, I do know that we do not, unlike swashies and Brigands. Which was my primary point. As to what people are objecting to, ie the ability to hold hate, thats not a necessary function while soloing, but maybe they will give us a DPS boost to offset the DPS loss (whatever it was) that we lost by losing the strength buff. The fact that we have no real way to hold aggro, no taunts and dont have high enough DPS to even hold it that way suggests thats we are not meant to do so. In addition when you consider that the new Hyrans now buffs a skill we cant even use (aggresion), suggests thats its not meant to be used by us. Take from that what you will.
I have a question for Dark Villian regarding the parses they posted. When you went all out you had 2 parsers of ~ 1k. I know you said you were fully fabled etc.. Are all your CAs spells at master level as well? I ask this as I took my lvl 70 dirge out last night to see what dps I could do on the basilisks . My gear is a mismatch as the dirge isn't my main and often is just a back up dirge for raids. My spells are adept I with a few key ones at adept III. Gear is a big mix, some fabled some legendary some needs replacing . About 45 AAs. My weapons are 50 and 51 DR Anyway I was able to peak at about 540 ext dps. I tried different combos, Of debuffs , starting spells etc. but around 500 seemed to be the peak. Just curious if gear and speall upgrades would push me up to that range or perhaps I need to work on my technique . D
Oh yeah man. Missing 4 masters total (And they are Adept III, I just dont use them often enough to invest the money), my Dirge is my main...But my weapons are 59 and 63 ratings (the 59 has a +12 Disease adornment, and the 63 has a Heat DMG CA, with a dot). Open with SoD, followed by Verliens debuff (5 Points in the EoF line), Tarvens debuff to lower defense, Infected Blade, Ludas, Wail of dead, and Grievance...They will be dead. If you waste time predebuffing, the parse has already started and you are losing time. Even in XP groups, I can parse 1kish...Did a couple times in Valdoons on a werewolves...But its harder on raids when we spend time rezzing, and healing when necessary. EDITED: Forgot to add I have 75ish AAs (Been slacking I know) and have the degradation ability increasing affectiveness of debuffs and casting speed by 50%. Message Edited by DarkVillian on 12-18-2006 01:26 PM
I agree this was a great change for raids, but considering I used this buff soloing FOR THE STR buff, +78 str is a fairly significant amont of DPS. I agree with one of the above posters a few pages back. This is another change that was designed to affect other classes, so they tkae something away from us and quite frankly dont offer anything back to help our dps or other issues. Im all for utility. Hell thats why I play the dirge, but when Im not in the raid format I'd like some stuff to help me for a change when I have to solo or in small duo groups. Im getting a little tired of this "balancing" thing that SOE does. Hey lets give this "X" class this ability and then we take something from bards and change something to help that "X" class. And oh yeah lets completely ignore the bard classes and not give them anything to compensate them for ALL the "balance" changes we done to them over the years.
